TC
Participating member
The vid is interesting nevertheless.
another backleaner
- Thread starter Daniel
- Start date
- Location
- Longmont, CO
[ QUOTE ]
anyone else getting private love letters from Mr. Daniel Murphy (c)?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. But, mine are romantic.
anyone else getting private love letters from Mr. Daniel Murphy (c)?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. But, mine are romantic.
Norm_Hall
New member
- Location
- Wauconda, (Chicago),IL,USA
[ QUOTE ]
1.Treework is not an exact science, you can never rule out the risk of death or serious injury.
2.From what I can see Dan is assessing risk on the job, the same as we all do, thinking on his feet just like the rest of us, he might chose a different technique but that doesn't make it inherently wrong.
3. We're all the same in this job, dealing with huge organic structures we know very little about. Dont kid yourselves on that you have an insight into the workings of a tree, you dont, everything we do is guesswork, we minimise the risk using experience and some book knowledge then we just go for it otherwise we'd never get anything done.
[/ QUOTE ]
It might be more accepted if there was something like:
"This is a backleaning tree. I'm gonna attempt to pull it against it's natural lean. I don't recommend anyone doing this."
1. It's not an exact science, but one can do whatever possible to minimize and mitigate possible hazards. Is that what is shown in the video? Did someone actually check the tension on a line, by pulling on it with his hand, while it was being tensioned with a motorized, tracked vehicle? Does anyone know how much force was on that line when he pulled on it with his hand?
2. I saw an assessing of the tree. There is NO mention of energized lines or the approximate degree of backlean. Was there a mention of the type of MA that was used, while a single line was pulling it? What about the sling anchoring the pulley at the base of the tree? (Now that sling had some force on it) Was there a mention of what rope constructions, diameters and fibers were used? Was there a felling plan involved? There wasn't one mentioned.
3. "We're all the same in this job." Do you really believe that? When some of us fell trees, we have a felling plan. Energized lines are mentioned. The approximate degree of backlean is mentioned. The split in the trunk is mentioned. Good and bad fiber are talked about. I also think some of us have a pretty good handle on "...the working of a tree..". Everything I do "Isn't guesswork".
That video shows an individual doing somethimg that could have easily seriously injured or killed him. He puts himself at risk, on video, several times. Let's face it, "He got lucky." No, that isn't exact science. Why show something like this to the public? It's absolutely absurd. Why did this individual "black out" a cut he was making from his bucket truck? His reply was "I didn't want the public to see something that someone would try. They might hurt themselves." Then why show something like this?
I think most of us agree, this is NOT a technique we would use. Especially when energized lines are involved. I personally NEVER use motorized equipment to pull over anything. Too many variables. Sooner or later one of those ropes is gonna part. Will we see that on video?
1.Treework is not an exact science, you can never rule out the risk of death or serious injury.
2.From what I can see Dan is assessing risk on the job, the same as we all do, thinking on his feet just like the rest of us, he might chose a different technique but that doesn't make it inherently wrong.
3. We're all the same in this job, dealing with huge organic structures we know very little about. Dont kid yourselves on that you have an insight into the workings of a tree, you dont, everything we do is guesswork, we minimise the risk using experience and some book knowledge then we just go for it otherwise we'd never get anything done.
[/ QUOTE ]
It might be more accepted if there was something like:
"This is a backleaning tree. I'm gonna attempt to pull it against it's natural lean. I don't recommend anyone doing this."
1. It's not an exact science, but one can do whatever possible to minimize and mitigate possible hazards. Is that what is shown in the video? Did someone actually check the tension on a line, by pulling on it with his hand, while it was being tensioned with a motorized, tracked vehicle? Does anyone know how much force was on that line when he pulled on it with his hand?
2. I saw an assessing of the tree. There is NO mention of energized lines or the approximate degree of backlean. Was there a mention of the type of MA that was used, while a single line was pulling it? What about the sling anchoring the pulley at the base of the tree? (Now that sling had some force on it) Was there a mention of what rope constructions, diameters and fibers were used? Was there a felling plan involved? There wasn't one mentioned.
3. "We're all the same in this job." Do you really believe that? When some of us fell trees, we have a felling plan. Energized lines are mentioned. The approximate degree of backlean is mentioned. The split in the trunk is mentioned. Good and bad fiber are talked about. I also think some of us have a pretty good handle on "...the working of a tree..". Everything I do "Isn't guesswork".
That video shows an individual doing somethimg that could have easily seriously injured or killed him. He puts himself at risk, on video, several times. Let's face it, "He got lucky." No, that isn't exact science. Why show something like this to the public? It's absolutely absurd. Why did this individual "black out" a cut he was making from his bucket truck? His reply was "I didn't want the public to see something that someone would try. They might hurt themselves." Then why show something like this?
I think most of us agree, this is NOT a technique we would use. Especially when energized lines are involved. I personally NEVER use motorized equipment to pull over anything. Too many variables. Sooner or later one of those ropes is gonna part. Will we see that on video?
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
If someone wants to check the tension on a line, they can get really crazy and get some high tech equipment to do it, rather than get into the expected path of a potentially parting line.
I think that its called a rope. Take one end and take a half of a turn around the tensioned line. Take both ends and feel the tension from far away. Hopefully there is an extra one of those around. It seems that there are not extra blocks around since there was an 8:1 using shackles with bad friction and bad bend radii.
If one were to get extra tricky, they could use a throwline, and remotely toss the weight and get it to wrap around the tensioned line, then feel the tension.
Or they could use cutting edge techniques, video it for the world to see, and go into the high danger zone and feel it with their hand.
I think that its called a rope. Take one end and take a half of a turn around the tensioned line. Take both ends and feel the tension from far away. Hopefully there is an extra one of those around. It seems that there are not extra blocks around since there was an 8:1 using shackles with bad friction and bad bend radii.
If one were to get extra tricky, they could use a throwline, and remotely toss the weight and get it to wrap around the tensioned line, then feel the tension.
Or they could use cutting edge techniques, video it for the world to see, and go into the high danger zone and feel it with their hand.
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
I was going to cut the two spars of a removal the other day, one forward leaning and one back leaning. I tied the two together, so that I could use the forward leaner to pull over the back leaner, with a tied-off line on my truck to prevent sitting back/ going over backward. As a last resort, I could have pushed down on the line or given a slight pull with gas powered assist.
I thought, WWDD? I untied it. I'll fell the one spar, and climb up and chunk down the other spar instead. It should have worked fine, but I was tired, and it was an unnecessary risk. Probably 20 minutes of extra work, if that. I have to go back today to finish the clean-up anyway.
I thought, WWDD? I untied it. I'll fell the one spar, and climb up and chunk down the other spar instead. It should have worked fine, but I was tired, and it was an unnecessary risk. Probably 20 minutes of extra work, if that. I have to go back today to finish the clean-up anyway.
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
anyone else getting private love letters from Mr. Daniel Murphy (c)?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. But, mine are romantic.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that you can use his name. Its copyrighted.
[ QUOTE ]
anyone else getting private love letters from Mr. Daniel Murphy (c)?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. But, mine are romantic.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that you can use his name. Its copyrighted.
Treespotter
New member
- Location
- Houten, The Netherlands
This felling would not be my option. When I saw the first tree going to the ground I thought "there goes the safe option getting both trees secure to the ground".
But after losing the first tree and looking at the rest of the video I was wondering if he ever heard of using a extra vertical notch behind the horizontal notch. This way you have a much bigger secure hinge to work with. Very long pulls of leaners are here usually done with this technique.
But after losing the first tree and looking at the rest of the video I was wondering if he ever heard of using a extra vertical notch behind the horizontal notch. This way you have a much bigger secure hinge to work with. Very long pulls of leaners are here usually done with this technique.
treewill
Participating member
- Location
- Everywhere and nowhere
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
anyone else getting private love letters from Mr. Daniel Murphy (c)?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. But, mine are romantic.
[/ QUOTE ]
Mine are romantic like Ike Turner was romantic towards Tina.
[ QUOTE ]
anyone else getting private love letters from Mr. Daniel Murphy (c)?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. But, mine are romantic.
[/ QUOTE ]
Mine are romantic like Ike Turner was romantic towards Tina.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
He ditched me, never writes, doesn't call...
- Location
- Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.
[ QUOTE ]
If someone wants to check the tension on a line, they can get really crazy and get some high tech equipment to do it, rather than get into the expected path of a potentially parting line. ......
Or they could use cutting edge techniques, video it for the world to see, and go into the high danger zone and feel it with their hand.
[/ QUOTE ]
Seans on the money here, going near a rope loaded with a vehicle is seriously dangerous. And the reason why i dont like to use trucks or machinery to pull trees over.
In my first couple of years of tree work, as a groundy only, pre-climbing even, I worked with a couple of hack/loppers before i saw the light.
One of them, trying to pull something with a truck that never should have been, snapped a 3/4" bull rope. I were standing right beside it, oblivious to the potential danger. It went off like a whip cracking, i didn't even know what happened. In a blink I were on the ground, in pain. It whipped around my elbows and hips twice & dropped me. I had massive bruising that drew blood through the surface. One on my hip was the size of a football and was there for almost 2 months. If this happened to be at neck height i dont reckon i'd be here.
So for me, if a pull rope, doubled blocks, wedges & a few men can't pull it over, it needs to be dismantled some more. You might get away with it many many times, but the odds are closing in the longer you play this game. Experience does not equal immortality.
If someone wants to check the tension on a line, they can get really crazy and get some high tech equipment to do it, rather than get into the expected path of a potentially parting line. ......
Or they could use cutting edge techniques, video it for the world to see, and go into the high danger zone and feel it with their hand.
[/ QUOTE ]
Seans on the money here, going near a rope loaded with a vehicle is seriously dangerous. And the reason why i dont like to use trucks or machinery to pull trees over.
In my first couple of years of tree work, as a groundy only, pre-climbing even, I worked with a couple of hack/loppers before i saw the light.
One of them, trying to pull something with a truck that never should have been, snapped a 3/4" bull rope. I were standing right beside it, oblivious to the potential danger. It went off like a whip cracking, i didn't even know what happened. In a blink I were on the ground, in pain. It whipped around my elbows and hips twice & dropped me. I had massive bruising that drew blood through the surface. One on my hip was the size of a football and was there for almost 2 months. If this happened to be at neck height i dont reckon i'd be here.
So for me, if a pull rope, doubled blocks, wedges & a few men can't pull it over, it needs to be dismantled some more. You might get away with it many many times, but the odds are closing in the longer you play this game. Experience does not equal immortality.
allmark
Participating member
AND trusting a locust which is known to be cracked and split would is not a food option... Maybe with a different species it would have been a good option but still with energized lines not the best option.
allmark
Participating member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1.Treework is not an exact science, you can never rule out the risk of death or serious injury.
2.From what I can see Dan is assessing risk on the job, the same as we all do, thinking on his feet just like the rest of us, he might chose a different technique but that doesn't make it inherently wrong.
3. We're all the same in this job, dealing with huge organic structures we know very little about. Dont kid yourselves on that you have an insight into the workings of a tree, you dont, everything we do is guesswork, we minimise the risk using experience and some book knowledge then we just go for it otherwise we'd never get anything done.
[/ QUOTE ]
It might be more accepted if there was something like:
"This is a backleaning tree. I'm gonna attempt to pull it against it's natural lean. I don't recommend anyone doing this."
1. It's not an exact science, but one can do whatever possible to minimize and mitigate possible hazards. Is that what is shown in the video? Did someone actually check the tension on a line, by pulling on it with his hand, while it was being tensioned with a motorized, tracked vehicle? Does anyone know how much force was on that line when he pulled on it with his hand?
2. I saw an assessing of the tree. There is NO mention of energized lines or the approximate degree of backlean. Was there a mention of the type of MA that was used, while a single line was pulling it? What about the sling anchoring the pulley at the base of the tree? (Now that sling had some force on it) Was there a mention of what rope constructions, diameters and fibers were used? Was there a felling plan involved? There wasn't one mentioned.
3. "We're all the same in this job." Do you really believe that? When some of us fell trees, we have a fellng plan. Energized lines are mentioned. The approximate degree of backlean is mentioned. The split in the trunk is mentioned. Good and bad fiber are talked about. I also think some of us have a pretty good handle on "...the working of a tree..". Everything I do "Isn't guesswork".
That video shows an individual doing somethimg that could have easily seriously injured or killed him. He puts himself at risk, on video, several times. Let's face it, "He got lucky." No, that isn't exact science. Why show something like this to the public? It's absolutely absurd. Why did this individual "black out" a cut he was making from his bucket truck? His reply was "I didn't want the public to see something that someone would try. They might hurt themselves." Then why show something like this?
I think most of us agree, this is NOT a technique we would use. Especially when energized lines are involved. I personally NEVER use motorized equipment to pull over anything. Too many variables. Sooner or later one of those ropes is gonna part. Will we see that on video?
[/ QUOTE ]
Ditto
[ QUOTE ]
1.Treework is not an exact science, you can never rule out the risk of death or serious injury.
2.From what I can see Dan is assessing risk on the job, the same as we all do, thinking on his feet just like the rest of us, he might chose a different technique but that doesn't make it inherently wrong.
3. We're all the same in this job, dealing with huge organic structures we know very little about. Dont kid yourselves on that you have an insight into the workings of a tree, you dont, everything we do is guesswork, we minimise the risk using experience and some book knowledge then we just go for it otherwise we'd never get anything done.
[/ QUOTE ]
It might be more accepted if there was something like:
"This is a backleaning tree. I'm gonna attempt to pull it against it's natural lean. I don't recommend anyone doing this."
1. It's not an exact science, but one can do whatever possible to minimize and mitigate possible hazards. Is that what is shown in the video? Did someone actually check the tension on a line, by pulling on it with his hand, while it was being tensioned with a motorized, tracked vehicle? Does anyone know how much force was on that line when he pulled on it with his hand?
2. I saw an assessing of the tree. There is NO mention of energized lines or the approximate degree of backlean. Was there a mention of the type of MA that was used, while a single line was pulling it? What about the sling anchoring the pulley at the base of the tree? (Now that sling had some force on it) Was there a mention of what rope constructions, diameters and fibers were used? Was there a felling plan involved? There wasn't one mentioned.
3. "We're all the same in this job." Do you really believe that? When some of us fell trees, we have a fellng plan. Energized lines are mentioned. The approximate degree of backlean is mentioned. The split in the trunk is mentioned. Good and bad fiber are talked about. I also think some of us have a pretty good handle on "...the working of a tree..". Everything I do "Isn't guesswork".
That video shows an individual doing somethimg that could have easily seriously injured or killed him. He puts himself at risk, on video, several times. Let's face it, "He got lucky." No, that isn't exact science. Why show something like this to the public? It's absolutely absurd. Why did this individual "black out" a cut he was making from his bucket truck? His reply was "I didn't want the public to see something that someone would try. They might hurt themselves." Then why show something like this?
I think most of us agree, this is NOT a technique we would use. Especially when energized lines are involved. I personally NEVER use motorized equipment to pull over anything. Too many variables. Sooner or later one of those ropes is gonna part. Will we see that on video?
[/ QUOTE ]
Ditto
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
[ QUOTE ]
So for me, if a pull rope, doubled blocks, wedges & a few men can't pull it over, it needs to be dismantled some more.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yep.
...and I always agree with everything Norm says.
So for me, if a pull rope, doubled blocks, wedges & a few men can't pull it over, it needs to be dismantled some more.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yep.
...and I always agree with everything Norm says.
Norm_Hall
New member
- Location
- Wauconda, (Chicago),IL,USA
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If someone wants to check the tension on a line, they can get really crazy and get some high tech equipment to do it, rather than get into the expected path of a potentially parting line. ......
[/ QUOTE ]
Seans on the money here, going near a rope loaded with a vehicle is seriously dangerous. And the reason why i dont like to use trucks or machinery to pull trees over.
In my first couple of years of tree work, as a groundy only, pre-climbing even, I worked with a couple of hack/loppers before i saw the light.
One of them, trying to pull something with a truck that never should have been, snapped a 3/4" bull rope. I were standing right beside it, oblivious to the potential danger. It went off like a whip cracking, i didn't even know what happened. In a blink I were on the ground, in pain. It whipped around my elbows and hips twice & dropped me. I had massive bruising that drew blood through the surface. One on my hip was the size of a football and was there for almost 2 months. If this happened to be at neck height i dont reckon i'd be here.
So for me, if a pull rope, doubled blocks, wedges & a few men can't pull it over, it needs to be dismantled some more. You might get away with it many many times, but the odds are closing in the longer you play this game. Experience does not equal immortality.
[/ QUOTE ]
I personally know of several incidents where ropes have parted and recoiled, striking ground workers. In 2 cases, they weren't able to return to tree care work due to the extensive damage to body parts
[ QUOTE ]
If someone wants to check the tension on a line, they can get really crazy and get some high tech equipment to do it, rather than get into the expected path of a potentially parting line. ......
[/ QUOTE ]
Seans on the money here, going near a rope loaded with a vehicle is seriously dangerous. And the reason why i dont like to use trucks or machinery to pull trees over.
In my first couple of years of tree work, as a groundy only, pre-climbing even, I worked with a couple of hack/loppers before i saw the light.
One of them, trying to pull something with a truck that never should have been, snapped a 3/4" bull rope. I were standing right beside it, oblivious to the potential danger. It went off like a whip cracking, i didn't even know what happened. In a blink I were on the ground, in pain. It whipped around my elbows and hips twice & dropped me. I had massive bruising that drew blood through the surface. One on my hip was the size of a football and was there for almost 2 months. If this happened to be at neck height i dont reckon i'd be here.
So for me, if a pull rope, doubled blocks, wedges & a few men can't pull it over, it needs to be dismantled some more. You might get away with it many many times, but the odds are closing in the longer you play this game. Experience does not equal immortality.
[/ QUOTE ]
I personally know of several incidents where ropes have parted and recoiled, striking ground workers. In 2 cases, they weren't able to return to tree care work due to the extensive damage to body parts
boreality
New member
- Location
- boreal forest
That's amsteel's claim to fame. It's for mechanical winches and if it breaks under heavy load it doesn't recoil. Or so I've heard.
Treespotter
New member
- Location
- Houten, The Netherlands
[ QUOTE ]
and if it breaks under heavy load it doesn't recoil. Or so I've heard.
[/ QUOTE ]True. I've seen that in several tests with long lines tensioned with a GRCS and cut with an ax. No recoil. Just dropping down to the ground.
and if it breaks under heavy load it doesn't recoil. Or so I've heard.
[/ QUOTE ]True. I've seen that in several tests with long lines tensioned with a GRCS and cut with an ax. No recoil. Just dropping down to the ground.
- Location
- Longmont, CO
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
anyone else getting private love letters from Mr. Daniel Murphy (c)?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. But, mine are romantic.
[/ QUOTE ]
Mine are romantic like Ike Turner was romantic towards Tina.
[/ QUOTE ]
LMAO.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
anyone else getting private love letters from Mr. Daniel Murphy (c)?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. But, mine are romantic.
[/ QUOTE ]
Mine are romantic like Ike Turner was romantic towards Tina.
[/ QUOTE ]
LMAO.
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
[ QUOTE ]
That's amsteel's claim to fame. It's for mechanical winches and if it breaks under heavy load it doesn't recoil. Or so I've heard.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd be interested to see it in a scenario with a tensioned/ flexed tree top anchor point, versus trunk to trunk, where there is very little bend.
I am seeing that common opinion is that there is negligible recoil, especially with its relatively low mass, but am interested none the less. I understand that cable or amsteel/UHMWPE are the best for the scenario.
Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand the physics of it.
That's amsteel's claim to fame. It's for mechanical winches and if it breaks under heavy load it doesn't recoil. Or so I've heard.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd be interested to see it in a scenario with a tensioned/ flexed tree top anchor point, versus trunk to trunk, where there is very little bend.
I am seeing that common opinion is that there is negligible recoil, especially with its relatively low mass, but am interested none the less. I understand that cable or amsteel/UHMWPE are the best for the scenario.
Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand the physics of it.
evo
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- My Island, WA
I've seen amsteel snap, and yes there is a bit of recoil.. I wouldnt place it anywhere in the same class as cable (regarding recoil) however. I'm sure it wouldnt feel good getting whipped by it but I dont think it would be put you out of work kind of bad.
Riggs
Participating member
- Location
- Bryn Mawr , Pa.
yep rope snaps , it's no joke . A climber I know got sued 17k , bevause he was pulling a tree over with his truck and the rope snapped and cut the homeowners neck . Sued his truck insurance because the rope was tied to it . The homeowner ( his friend) was standing by the truck .
Dan pulling that tree over was a "fk it" cut . Bucket was too small and didn't have someone probally to go up there . So "fk it" . To make that cut with the power lines behind you put a whole neighborhood at risk . This is 2010 , no reason to take chances like that , it worked . Got lucky . A homeowner has the right to know if your gonna take a chance . I'd love to hear that conversation . probally went like this : knock knock , hello , hello , youhoooo
" Sir , Mamam" , it's me Daniel . You know the tree is , like leaning heavy over the power lines . No problem < I can do it . I got all the equipment , well except the right equiopment. Can you just call all your neighbors up and ask them to turn off their ac , and computers ,tvs etc. you know , just in case they lose power , like instantly. I do this all the time , don't worry , I mean, I bs all the time , this shall , I mean should work . Thanks , your gonna make me a star . I appreciate the oppurtunity to put you, myself and the whole block at risk . Here let me get your wheelchair...how'd your husband lose his hearing and eyesight? thats a shame. See ya soon
Dan pulling that tree over was a "fk it" cut . Bucket was too small and didn't have someone probally to go up there . So "fk it" . To make that cut with the power lines behind you put a whole neighborhood at risk . This is 2010 , no reason to take chances like that , it worked . Got lucky . A homeowner has the right to know if your gonna take a chance . I'd love to hear that conversation . probally went like this : knock knock , hello , hello , youhoooo
" Sir , Mamam" , it's me Daniel . You know the tree is , like leaning heavy over the power lines . No problem < I can do it . I got all the equipment , well except the right equiopment. Can you just call all your neighbors up and ask them to turn off their ac , and computers ,tvs etc. you know , just in case they lose power , like instantly. I do this all the time , don't worry , I mean, I bs all the time , this shall , I mean should work . Thanks , your gonna make me a star . I appreciate the oppurtunity to put you, myself and the whole block at risk . Here let me get your wheelchair...how'd your husband lose his hearing and eyesight? thats a shame. See ya soon
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