30 plus years one handing a saw !

So
KevinS said:
'I never tell a rookie to 1 hand'
'I 1 hand because I'm a seasoned pro, but the green rookies should always use 2 hand and use proper positioning'
'Do as I say not as I do, cause your new '

So if the green rookies that don't know there ass from there elbow can be held to these standards and get the job done why can't the pros wit well over 10, 000 saw hrs? Your good enough to shave with your saw but not good enough to 2 hand it?

Do you see where this is a bit confusing?
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can't argue there yet I see the future...
some day I will
Be able to (afford) to have my guys properly handle a saw as per industry standards... For now I'm the guy tossing and stacking from above on the chipper table.
 
KevinS said:
' Your good enough to shave with your saw but not good enough to 2 hand it?

Do you see where this is a bit confusing?
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NO body can td a tree with 2 handing as fast as someone one handing. NObody. I got lots of bills to pay including a $3,000. a month mortage for past 15 years with just my gm and me, nobody else....confusion cleared?

Plus there is no reason on earth I can't one hand. Completely legal. I do it all day, 6 days 8 hours a day if need be like during storm work and been nicked on the left hand just 3 times in over 45 years, no stitches, and all 3 times somebody ran or walked under me cutting I did not know about.
 
treehumper said:
They are doing it in Ontario as a voluntary program. It was a great way of learning. It's a matter of the industry getting on board with it like the skilled trades.
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I agree the apprentice program is a good thing. Lots of other trades have it why shouldn't arboriculture? It's a small step in getting things level across the board and if you look through there books you have to sign off on it helps you make sure that they're getting a well rounded view of the industry.

I know top handles are advertised as 1 handed saws all over the USA but in Canada (I believe) and in Ontario for sure it is actually against the rules/law to be one handing.

Not saying you guys are doing it wrong and the odd time I do it myself, but I try not to.

As for people walking under the tree you're in that's a site safety issue not necessarily a 1 handing issue. I understand the bill have to be paid. I hope those nicks never get worse like my friend the way 1 handing and pitching and the saw skipped her wrist is pretty much back to normal it only took 2 or 3 surgeries. Be safe is all I want to say it only takes once for things to go south in a hurry.
 
frashdog said:
So
can't argue there yet I see the future...
some day I will
Be able to (afford) to have my guys properly handle a saw as per industry standards... For now I'm the guy tossing and stacking from above on the chipper table.
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I'm lucky enough to have seen how it used to be around our company with some of the old employees, the boss called it the wild west. But now I'm the safety rep and managing foreman and push for standards. I find people get used to habits/ skills that they form so if I stay on top off them right out of the gate to do it the best we can then it just becomes normal and the way to do it.

The company I'm at for years was known as the spot rookies would cut there teeth and if you can work here the cities, hydro, etc would scoop up your resume. This led to a fairly high turn over and a lot of new people and skill levels rotating through.
Fortunately the other lead hand and I started together and have continuously work there for a while now and our phc guy is the same just a couple years newer. We've had high school co-op students that stayed on for multiple years and now we've taken a couple of guys working on there apprenticeship. All fairly new and haven't picked up to many crazy habits. We get a lot of resumes for the 2 main colleges that have arboriculture programs so we get guys with an intro level base of knowledge which is helpful.

I'm not sure how other companies justify how many guys they hire but we have 5-6 trucks on the road in the summer so obviously we have more than just the boss and maybe 1 other guy. So I guess I'm lucky to be in the position I'm in. I'm no 25 year veteran either so take that however you like.
 
KevinS said:
I know top handles are advertised as 1 handed saws all over the USA but in Canada (I believe) and in Ontario for sure it is actually against the rules/law to be one handing.
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If you open up the owner's manual under, "During Operation", it is clearly stated for any "T" saw that 2 hands are to be used. I don't think I've ever seen any sort of ad referring to them as one-handed saws. What happens though is the perpetuation of the myth through word of mouth that they are designed for single hand use. They are designed to be compact for situations where space is limited, thus the handle moved to the top. If they were designed for one hand there would be no front handle at all.

For those who claim it's faster to one-hand, show me some statistics to say productivity has diminished due to 2-handing. I don't mean anecdotal evidence but, industry wide stats. While productivity is important any sort of gains are lost to the cost of an accident.
 
My biggest issue with 1 handing is that in my personal experience, it's usually the result of laziness or poor planning. There are scenario's where I think 1 handing is appropriate but most of the time a quick change of position or lanyard makes 2 hands just as simple. Occasionally I find myself 1 handing because the cut is awkward and in most of those situations, a change of position (and perhaps a pole saw) make 1 handing unnecessary. I find that slowing down a little and looking around, being present instead of on autopilot, reduces my 1 handing to a negligible amount. I just don't see it making that much of a time difference in most trees. I also refuse to be hurried anymore. I worked production and now I own my own business so I get to set my own pace. I bid so I don't have to rush anymore. And while I'm not going to condemn 1 handing, I find that the less I use it , the safer my work practice becomes, even if it's simply because I'm more aware of my actions and plans.
 
treehumper said:
They are doing it in Ontario as a voluntary program. It was a great way of learning. It's a matter of the industry getting on board with it like the skilled trades.
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This may need a whole other thread but how many guys/companies would support by hiring through apprenticeship programs. If they were more demanded they may be more supplied and this would raise are standard for training. There has been talk about wanting our trade recognized so would this help?
 
It's a matter of the industry associations, TCIA & ISA, working together along with the government's agencies that oversee trades, training and education. Here's a link to Ontario's document regarding the program there. Then there's that thing called the political will do something...
 
treehumper said:
It's a matter of the industry associations, TCIA & ISA, working together along with the government's agencies that oversee trades, training and education. Here's a link to Ontario's document regarding the program there. Then there's that thing called the political will do something...
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I've looked through this book our 2 apprentices have them.
Just wondering what you mean by 'Then there's that thing called the political will do something... '

I just know from my experience in college the head of the department invited local company leaders in and said what do you want to see in an employee when they apply to you.

So if more companies urged the institutions to provide this, like in Ontario it's voluntary, it may make a push to being a norm and being more widely implemented. If bosses say they want to see it on the resumes students will sign up to better there chances at landing the job. Put it in your hiring ad as being an asset things along those lines would help it make its own push and then numbers and dollars into programs make the politicians take note that much easier. IMO
 
I feel some of you think those of us one hand do it in most situations, we probably don't.

I really only one hand when I am in a bucket and the limbs being cut are over some thing that would requiring lowering....
when I can grip a piece , cut arm length with one hand and swing/toss with the momentum of gravity I do it... Some times this happens a few times a tree, some times most of the tree. How is this dangerous, my body is no where to meet with the saw if there was even a way for it to kick back, which there is not... So I think ya'll against it don't even know what you are arguing about. Sure there are people who one hand in stupid situations, just like people who plain old use a saw with two hands in stupid situations...in the situation I described, I'll wager any amount you can't compete... We'll be raking the yard while you are still lowering pieces.

My friend who was a line clearance guy for years coached me the safest way to cut and toss is to with both hands on the saw start the cut then let go with the left hand and grab the limb, do this incase the saw does not purchase the wood and rides down at your hand....my saws are sharp and I've never seen it happen.

I imagine you folks against it are mostly paid by the hour with no production incentives. So long as you perform at a constant acceptable rate and you are "safe" so is your job. Can't blame you...
 
Oh and another thing....ha
I have nicked myself several times one handing my hand saws!

In order to avoid one handing powered saws in tricky spots,
I regularly will use a hand saw to finish my cuts started by the powered saw, especially when climbing where I need too use a free hand to manipulate the piece being sent.
 
frashdog said:
Oh and another thing....ha
I have nicked myself several times one handing my hand saws!

In order to avoid one handing powered saws in tricky spots,
I regularly will use a hand saw to finish my cuts started by the powered saw, especially when climbing where I need too use a free hand to manipulate the piece being sent.
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That's fairly popular I think
 
frashdog said:
In order to avoid one handing powered saws in tricky spots,
I regularly will use a hand saw to finish my cuts started by the powered saw, especially when climbing where I need too use a free hand to manipulate the piece being sent.
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I do that all the time, especially on conifers where cutting near my body is unavoidable, so I want two hands on the saw, and rigging doesn't make any sense because the limbs are small. I'll undercut two or three whorls worth of branches with the chainsaw then go back and cut and toss with my handsaw.
 
frashdog said:
I feel some of you think those of us one hand do it in most situations, we probably don't.

I really only one hand when I am in a bucket and the limbs being cut are over some thing that would requiring lowering....
when I can grip a piece , cut arm length with one hand and swing/toss with the momentum of gravity I do it... Some times this happens a few times a tree, some times most of the tree. How is this dangerous, my body is no where to meet with the saw if there was even a way for it to kick back, which there is not... So I think ya'll against it don't even know what you are arguing about. Sure there are people who one hand in stupid situations, just like people who plain old use a saw with two hands in stupid situations...in the situation I described, I'll wager any amount you can't compete... We'll be raking the yard while you are still lowering pieces.

My friend who was a line clearance guy for years coached me the safest way to cut and toss is to with both hands on the saw start the cut then let go with the left hand and grab the limb, do this incase the saw does not purchase the wood and rides down at your hand....my saws are sharp and I've never seen it happen.

I imagine you folks against it are mostly paid by the hour with no production incentives. So long as you perform at a constant acceptable rate and you are "safe" so is your job. Can't blame you...
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Yeah, I know a guy who received 36 stitches on his forearm doing exactly what you described. He miscalculated the swing of the limb and it brought his forearm into contact with the saw, which wasn't spooled down all the way because with only one hand holding the saw, he couldn't remove his finger all the way from the trigger. And before you say it couldn't happen to you because you're tougher/stronger than he was, I'll let you know that he caught and rode wild horses in competition. How many of you have caught I wild horse with a lariat, been dragged around an arena by it, then proceeded to wrestle it to the ground, saddle it and then ride it? I'll wager not many. I know it'd whoop my ass.
And the argument against 1 handing comes down to this, shortcuts inevitably lead to accidents. Some people get really damn lucky and they get by for a long time but it eventually catches up with most people. 1 handing is (in most cases) one of those shortcuts. That argument about production over safety is what every hack out there uses. Think of the accident in the UK with the old guys trimming off a ladder in the back of a pick up. That made it 40 years before that shit caught up with them, but I sure as hell wouldn't try it.
 
I'm with frashdog, I mainly one hand while when I'm in the bucket, not to say that when I'm in the bucket I automatically one hand, but body positioning is obviously much better in a bucket, usually out closer to the tips where things are lighter and if there's a higher than average chance of cutting myself then I figure out something else.

I don't understand while climbing having to hold onto your rope while cutting, I don't think that an issue with the use of the saw, that's an issue with climbing, go back and learn how to climb.
 
wyoclimber said:
Yeah, I know a guy who received 36 stitches on his forearm doing exactly what you described. He miscalculated the swing of the limb and it brought his forearm into contact with the saw, which wasn't spooled down all the way because with only one hand holding the saw, he couldn't remove his finger all the way from the trigger. And before you say it couldn't happen to you because you're tougher/stronger than he was, I'll let you know that he caught and rode wild horses in competition. How many of you have caught I wild horse with a lariat, been dragged around an arena by it, then proceeded to wrestle it to the ground, saddle it and then ride it? I'll wager not many. I know it'd whoop my ass.
And the argument against 1 handing comes down to this, shortcuts inevitably lead to accidents. Some people get really damn lucky and they get by for a long time but it eventually catches up with most people. 1 handing is (in most cases) one of those shortcuts. That argument about production over safety is what every hack out there uses. Think of the accident in the UK with the old guys trimming off a ladder in the back of a pick up. That made it 40 years before that shit caught up with them, but I sure as hell wouldn't try it.
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Good buddy once told me we are born with two buckets, one in each hand. One is the luck bucket and it is full. The other is the wisdom bucket and it's empty of course. In order to stay alive, for a while, make sure when ever you spend your luck, it pays over into the wisdom bucket.

Did your buddy who battled horses wear a helmet when he partook in asserting his dominance over poor wild ponies?

On the other hand! I do not fully believe that all shortcuts lead to accidents and who ever wrote the bible on safety that ya'll are thumping was another flawed human no different then us, so believe what ever you want it is your right. Knee jerk logic works well for the masses for a reason. Guns kill people, helmets and seat belts save lives....we can go on and on.

I'll never say something could not happen to me, hell I'm concerned (not much) about being hit by a meteorite.
 
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