Worker pulled into wood chipper

It is odd that a person who admits that he has held a patent related to chippers thinks I am on the payroll of the chipper makers. "Me thinks thou dost protest too much."

After reading fatality reports, talking to witnesses, discussing with Dr. John Ball and witnessing unsafe behaviors at the back of almost every chipper, I don't think a crystal ball is required. Odd also that you imply that I can't possibly know how these accidents occur because they are unwitnessed, yet, somehow you know...

For those readers who know of Dr. Shigo's teachings understand that now is the time to say, "that is a nice tie you have there Jomoco."
 
No TMW, there's a grisly forensic factual evidence trail on each scene that tells the story of which way the treeworker went into the chipper, and which body part was lost first, generally an arm.

I note that you've failed to answer my question TMW, is there a reason for this?

Honest injun now.

jomoco
 
For the past couple of weeks I've been out of touch...moving, new job, etc.

Time for catchup!

Can you provide more details here:

I have been a firsthand witness to three chipper incidents in which an operator would have been chipped if not for the quick reactions of a second operator.

My chipper experience goes back a few decades and many innovations. The first chipper I was around was a 12" SIX VOLT!!! four cylinder Asplundh. That taught me to stay to the side of the chute. The first chipper I owned was a 1962 Whisper Chipper...yeah, Whisper, HA HA! This one had a Ford 352 V8...more power! Adding a rubber flap in front of the drum really did make it a bit more whisper-like...HA HA! It did keep little knobs from popping back out at us.

Years later I got back into using hydraulic feed disc chippers. With the respect that they deserve. My first disc chipper came with a tiny infeed table so I welded up a deeper wider one to keep us away from the infeed.

Hydro feed chippers are much more insidious than chuck and ducks. Part and parcel to the design. Not that they can't be made safer of course. The most dangerous part of any operation is the operator. Not working according to proper procedures will likely lead to an accident/death.

Something that I suggested a while ago to raise the awareness of chipper dangers was to stripe the infeed chute with white/red diagonal paint. Sure, the center part would get scraped away but it sure would highlight the 'No Flesh Zone' of a chipper. And it is cheap!

There is a shared responsibilty. Certainly the manufacturers should make improvements. At the same time workers need to follow instructions. In the US legal system there isn't an 'out' for stupid on either side of this relationship though.
 
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Yup, nothing like a good online argument though huh jojo?

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Absolutely Jim, particularly when i'm on the right side of the moral and ethical elements of the debated issue.

I got to test one of the first 1800's when vermeer started marketing them in San Diego county. I rattled the engine loose on it the first day we used it, feeding it with a crane.

I've got to hand it to vermeer though, they had their mechanic there that same day and many days afterward successfully wrenching it back together each time I rattled it apart.

But I recognized it's danger to the operators that first day too, and a few months later the idea of a safety gate on the new units capable of saving an incapacitated and trapped operator popped into my mind as a direct result of their awesome power and increased production capabilities.

jomoco
 
Thanks for chiming in on this important matter Tom.

The three close calls using an 1800 vermeer that I've witnessed firsthand all shared a common element.

The feed wheels though hydraulically driven obtain their grip on the material being fed into it by spring tension exerted as the material forces the feed wheels open.

This spring pressure, though substantial, is proven to be very passive at the point the material first makes contact with the spinning cutters on the drum, and the violence of the re-orientation that can occur making initial contact with that drum frequently overpowers the grip of the feedwheels causing a godzilla like tail sweep of the log or branch on the feedtable and the entire length of the log or branch to an exactly corresponding radius behind the chipper.

It's particularly violent when irregularities in the woods straightness like elbows leave the feedwheels and orient themselves against the spinning cutter drum. It's this very common feeding aspect of whole tree chippers that caught all three operators of the incidents I witnessed unaware and knocked them silly enough to require the quick reactions of a second operator on the reverse bar to prevent a grisly tragedy.

This feed material re-orientation can happen incredibly quickly, and with more than sufficient power and violence to up end even the strongest 275 pound operator as he places smaller material on top of longer material going through the chipper.

I've seen it happen three times with my own eyes on the job.
And I'm sure many other veterans of whole tree chipper operations have witnessed the same dang thing happen as well.

jomoco
 
This is where your wrong bud. Vermeers design is the best out there for no "tail sweep" of pieces. I have run close to evry new 18" model out there and this has been proven time and time again. Those two VERTICAl rollers are FAR superior in safe design to any horizontal machine on the market. Morbark in my experiences are the worst for uppercut and tail sweep style swings.

Still dodging questions too I see.



How do YOU and only YOU kniow what happened on these sites? Are you on payroll from the families of manufacturers? Are yo an attorney that we dont know about? Do you hide in the woods watching others work?
 
Actually BB the big morbarks are superior to the big vermeers in terms of hydraulic crushing force exerted on the material being fed, and the ability to open the feedwheel to accept a big fat butt log with a single hydraulic control handle.

That's just one of the reasons that big morbark whole tree chippers and tub grinders rule in the PNW.

You can augment a morbark's spring pressure on material being fed through it hydraulically with the control lever.

You caint do that with a vermeer my east coast friend.

Do you have any serious questions for me BB, or just silly ones?

jomoco
 
Yes I do, ill ask it for a 2nd time.



How do YOU and only YOU kniow what happened on these sites? Are you on payroll from the families of manufacturers? Are yo an attorney that we dont know about? Do you hide in the woods watching others work?


Stop dodging questions!
 
Re: Worker pulled into wood chipper

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In fact I predict the day will soon come when a chainsaw's safety brake will only disengage when the saw's triggers are engaged.

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It's been around for atleast 2yrs.

MS 361 C-Q
 
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In fact I predict the day will soon come when a chainsaw's safety brake will only disengage when the saw's triggers are engaged.

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It's been around for atleast 2yrs.

MS 361 C-Q

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Great saw! Available on the 441 as well.

Husky trio brake is a good ide, but Stihl nailed it with a winner here.
 
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Yes I do, ill ask it for a 2nd time.



How do YOU and only YOU kniow what happened on these sites? Are you on payroll from the families of manufacturers? Are yo an attorney that we dont know about? Do you hide in the woods watching others work?


Stop dodging questions!

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The only knowledge I have of the incidents involving experienced operator fatalities comes from going through the police reports, viewing the police and coroner's photographs and forensic reports personally myself, on three separate incidents.

What sense does it make for me to have any contact whatsoever with the manufacturer's families BB. My contact has been with the plaintiff's families and lawyers as an inventor who has dealt with these manufacturers many times in the past, as well as a 36 year veteran of the tree industry who specializes in tree removal operations using whole tree chippers since their introduction onto the market.

I was in Indianna about a year ago testifying in court against morbark in the Sparks chipper fatality case as an expert witness.

I don't hide in the woods BB, I provide expert testimonials in open court on behalf of dead treeworker's families.

I get paid the same rate for my testimony and time that I do on the job, 300 bucks a day.

Does that answer your questions honestly enough BB?

jomoco
 
Sounds like you and TMW have the same exact exposure to these incedents then. That being true, how are you MORE qualified to disqualify statements from a man like TMW!? A man who has publicly dedicated his entire life to SAFETY in our industry. Why should his statements mean less than yours when he has done what you have done and more? Who are YOU!?
 
Curiosity got to me. I have done all the legwork for you. Clearly you are far too busy researching arguments for court cases to scroll back 2 pages.

Questions are in BOLD

heres a question I asked you in response to you stating less disciplined operations are running 1800's with day labor, Temps, etc etc:

You consider these men persons who should be ruinnign a 145-210HP 18" hydraulic "whole tree chipper"? I consider these men getting hurt, employers negligence and negligence of the operator.

why won't ANY manufacturer in the WORLD install this safety device if it is really that good?

how many operators have been chipped while standing on the side of the infeed table, operating the chipper in a safe manner per manufacturers recommendations?

How can I help Jomoco? PLEASEEEEEEEEEEE Tell me!

these are just mine that you have sidestepped, nevermind TMW, and Toms post.
 
A veteran treeworker BB, who wants other treeworkers to make it home to their families after each workday.

What's your problem with that?

jomoco
 
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A veteran treeworker BB, who wants other treeworkers to make it home to their families after each workday.

What's your problem with that?

jomoco

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I have no problem. You are degrading one of the top safety guys in our profession. Thats not right man! I feel for every sole that is lost no matter how they died in this industry. Fact is that FAR more than half of these men met their untimely deaths by breaking safety rules put in place to protect them!




I believe there are still some unanswered questions though.....back on topic please.
 
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You consider these men persons who should be ruinnign a 145-210HP 18" hydraulic "whole tree chipper"? I consider these men getting hurt, employers negligence and negligence of the operator.

why won't ANY manufacturer in the WORLD install this safety device if it is really that good?

how many operators have been chipped while standing on the side of the infeed table, operating the chipper in a safe manner per manufacturers recommendations?

How can I help Jomoco? PLEASEEEEEEEEEEE Tell me!



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No I don't consider them qualified to feed a whole tree chipper, but the reality is that it happens in every state every work day.

All the major chipper manufacturers are in the US and have an unwritten understanding between them not to pursue, test or incorporate a safety system into their chippers that can prevent incapacitated operators from being chipped alive by their machines for fear of the system failing and their being held liable in court.

I don't know how many operators standing on the side have been chipped, but I'm quite certain that more than a few of them have been knocked silly on many occasions.

Quit being a hypocrite about high tech chipper safety improvements compared to high tech crane safety improvements, the basic principles of enhanced worker safety applies to both pieces of equipment.

jomoco
 
my responses go in order of your responses, PLEASE respond!

Knowing these men are unqualified, why is it the manufactueres fault when one of them gets hurt, or dies?

Do you have proof at all of these handshake agreements? Or are these opinions of yours?

Knocked silly is one thing, standiung to the side, getting knocked silly then being chipped is different. I would say less than 3 of the total fatalities in the history of hydro chippers, but thats MY unresearched opinion. maybe TMW, or John Ball can help here. Point is if you follow safety procedures the risk of this happening is almsot zero!

How am I a hypocrite about chippers and cranes you lunatic!? Show me where I said chippers should NOT be made safer! You really shouldnt be putting words in my mouth!
 
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A veteran treeworker BB, who wants other treeworkers to make it home to their families after each workday.

What's your problem with that?

jomoco

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I have no problem. You are degrading one of the top safety guys in our profession. Thats not right man! I feel for every sole that is lost no matter how they died in this industry. Fact is that FAR more than half of these men met their untimely deaths by breaking safety rules put in place to protect them!




I believe there are still some unanswered questions though.....back on topic please.

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I'm not degrading TMW, I'm simply disagreeing with his assumption that all these fatalities involving whole tree chippers are the result of operator error, or that safety technology capable of preventing these grisly deaths should not be incumbent on the manufacturers to pursue and develope asap.

It seems to me that TMW's position is not as supportive of treeworker safety as it is the manufacturer's growing problem of protecting themselves from the escalating numbers of chipper operators dying grisly deaths while operating their chippers.

jomoco
 
You missed a few responses there Jomoco.

TMW I feel is simply stating that a lot of the men that have faced a grisly death, are at fault. OR their employers are at fault, NOT the manufacturer. Why is the manufacrturer at fault if an employee or employer uses their product in a way in which it wasnt designed? Whether that is gauntlet gloves, feeding from other than on the side of the machine, opening access panels while engines/drums/discs are still moving.

Please explain to me how the manufacturer is at fault.




ALSO PLEASE ANSWER THE LAST SET OF QUESTIONS POSED TO YOU!
 
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