Who's Doing the Necessary Work?

Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

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Somewhere too close to twenty percent of our population doesn't get adequate nutrition and it's not because they're lazy or stupid, it's because our system is inherently unfair.

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Well, I've not seen these malnourished folk you speak of. 1/5th of society? Come on. Over-nourished is more like it.

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If you think it's fair that 95% of the recent post-recession economic gains have gone to less than 1% of our population, please explain why.

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As far as the economic gains, well yeah, there's a big gap between the biggest money makers and the next group down. It's a free country. Make what you will. Make what you want. We all have the opportunity if we're willing to fit the Wall Street mold. But if nobody's buying what you're selling, figure something else out.

Personally I'd never want that kind of life.
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

I think we can agree that there are incomes on Wall Street that have reached the point of absurdity. And it's also absurd to think that ANYONE on Wall St. (or any other street) works 35 times harder than a tree service owner. But the bitter little pill is that most any ambitious young, fit Wall Streeter could apply for a job at a tree service, dedicate himself, and advance. Not true in reverse. The average groundie isn't gonna be proficient in algorithmic portfolio evaluation or options trading.

Different industries value different skills and abilities. We all knew (or should have known) when we chose this route that we weren't headed for the Forbes 400. Not to say we can't achieve a very comfortable life. Just not ever gonna have to worry about whether the ceiling fan in our garage is gonna clear the Lambo's roof once the elevator's fully raised.

No, it's not fair that some have so much while others have less. As mom said, life ain't fair.

Example: Is it fair that some of us have Kbooms while others still have to climb and drag? "We work harder than them! They shouldn't profit more than us!" I know, not a perfect analogy.

Bottom line: The rich get richer because they keep doing the things that made them rich. Sadly and inevitably, the opposite is usually true of the poor. That said, I'm no fan of theft or corruption. If you can prove malfeasance or criminality by some financial guys, then by all means let's punish them.

P.S. I believe the guy in your originally linked article was a wrestler at Columbia. Collegiate wrestlers are tough dudes, mentally and physically, without exception. Pretty sure he could handle tree work if he wanted to.
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

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I started this thread because I'm not particularly impressed with the financial elite's work ethic compared to the average industrious blue-collar worker. It's trivially easy to dismiss the idea that young Wall Streeters work 35 times harder than an average tree company owner.

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When Taibbi called a representative of Goldman-Sachs to ask why their AVERAGE worker salary was 1.6 million, he replied… "We work very hard here."

I work pretty damn hard, too.

-Tom
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

He should have replied, "Because that's what the market will bear." Apparently that's the going cost of labor in his business. He certainly wouldn't pay his employees more than he had to, anymore than we do. If he paid them less they would seek jobs with his competitors and put him at a disadvantage, just like us.

It has little to do with how hard they work and more to do with how much their skill is valued by the market and society. For example, who works harder or longer than roofers and migrant farmers? No one. But they make very little. Their skill is widely available and thus not highly compensated. Rich guys usually jumped thru hoops to get in position to make the cash. Get the grades in high school, major in finance or stats at an Ivy, maybe a Masters. Maybe they got lucky and just had connections. That'll never change. Like my doctor told me once when we were talking money, "Everyone wants to do what I do, but no one wants to do what I did."

Any of us could have made choices that put us at Goldman. We went a different way.
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

I look at the income disparity in the U.S. as a product of numerous factors. First and foremost IMO is that we pay for the use of our money. This is one of the contributors to the national debt. That is why the Jefferson quote is important. The second IMO is tax structure. The wealthy people (keep in mind corporations are people) don’t pay their fair share- and before anyone starts in with these giant $ amounts, look at it only from a % based view. That’s the only impartial way. One of the biggest fears of our founding fathers, and numerous leaders following them, was the concentration of wealth. History has shown it leads to a ruling class, making all of us servants. This is where Glenn’s point of a progressive tax system is worth considering. (This has nothing to do with the new label “progressive” that is used to describe some liberals.) We had a progressive tax system in the past, from what I’ve read the elected officials have worked for the last 30 + years to undo it. During that same period the rich have gotten richer and our national debt has grown. This can’t be a coincidence.

"A business that makes nothing but money is a poor business"
- Henry Ford
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

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Bottom line: The rich get richer because they keep doing the things that made them rich. Sadly and inevitably, the opposite is usually true of the poor. That said, I'm no fan of theft or corruption. If you can prove malfeasance or criminality by some financial guys, then by all means let's punish them.

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When they write and influence laws they'll never break them. Money = power. That is what allows this corruption. You and I don't have the ability (or money) to hold them accountable. History proves this- no one was held liable, criminally or otherwise, for what went down in ’08. But that debt is on our backs, then our children, grandchildren, on and on and on. Because they aren’t paying their share!
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

Oh, they're paying their fair share. How Much the Rich Pay

Here's one from Forbes The data come straight from the CBO.

How much is enough? 40% right off the top for Fed taxes, then add in state, local, sales, and property taxes. Most of the one percent are approaching 60% of their income going straight to Uncle Sugar. You reach a point where the rich will just take their ball and go home. Would you get out of bed in the morning to take home 20 percent of what you made? They'll find ways to shield it, hide it, or move it. Some other country will be glad to have them and their millions.

And not all "rich guys" get their income exclusively from capital gains. But go ahead and jack up the capital gains rates and see how much investment in American companies we suddenly don't get.

Last point: Corporations never, EVER pay taxes. HUMAN BEINGS do!

They'll either raise their prices (can only do this so much) or they'll cut expenses. Like jobs.
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

I should clarify: I'm not saying that there is never room or cause to raise taxes. There is. It's been done before and the world didn't end. The debate is over how much and on whom.

"How much" is a moving target. Depends on lots of factors and open to debate. For kicks, look up the Laffer Curve

"On whom" is always the same- "Anyone but me!" Usually the rich. I just never got a job from a poor man.
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

Take a look at this article. When talking about tax burdens, etc... one needs to look at income growth over time as well.

Very interesting

http://www.taxanalysts.com/www/features.nsf/Articles/C52956572546624F85257B1D004DE3FC?OpenDocument

As for the Laffer Curve, um take a look at this one. Since it was first described by Arthur Laffer in what 1978, it's been shown to not reflect reality.

http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2008/01/the-new-laffer.html

The reason capital gains comes up is that there has been a shift in the income stream toward capital gains and that is primarily for the wealthy.

Spending reforms are needed before we can ever do anything about tax reform.

What exactly is the definition of working hard?
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

I'm gonna step in here for just a sec. This conversation has just been interesting to peek in on. I can understand the frustrations with greed and taking advantage of people; I share them of course. I think what is interesting is that this conversation changes with every income level. People who make only dollars per day would look at all of us in disgust as we in turn look in disgust at the earners above us and wonder when are they going to do their part or pay their share?

I have a friend who sells credit card processing. He makes almost $400k per year now and it seems like he plays more golf than he works. From the outside you might think of him as selfish and greedy but I have known him for years and seen the whole process. I've never seen someone so committed to eliminating debt and sticking to a budget. Even from the beginning.

Sometimes people are more wealthy because they make better financial decisions and are more responsible with their money. Do they owe anyone else anything for that?
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

Some good stuff Bucknut. I’d counter some of it by saying: the rich spend a lot of money manipulating terms and statistics to benefit their agenda. Much like they manipulate law to benefit their needs. I’m not an accountant or a tax expert but looking at history, two things stand out: When the federal reserve was created we started paying interest on our own money, and as the tax rate on high income earners went down, our debt went up. This is a dynamic between spending and revenue, and we definitely are spending more. That part of this argument (spending) is a multi faceted one to say the least.

I don’t buy the “we’re going to leave” argument. No other country is America, any others that come close tax you a whole bunch more.

If I can find it, I believe the Cato institute had a graph showing what it would be like if there was just a flat (% based) tax on income (however you want to define it- money an individual receives from another source). Everyone earning more than $25k would be subject to it, and the amount of money flowing in went up. In order for this to happen we’d have to do away with a lot of the federal government and the laws that go with it. Our founding fathers never intended the federal government to be this big or this powerful anyway.

The Laffer curve and supply side economics- isn’t that what Bush senior called voodoo economics? And if I remember correctly he was run out of town.

My point is that if we want to stay using the system we have now a progressive tax rate may be a way to reign in the Wall Street greed, that’s a big may though. If I was left to choose we’d just follow the constitution. This country was built on hard work, it just seems like nobody wants to do it anymore. I hate to say it but the stuff we’re in is above the boots so, it could be too late.

I’ve never had time to check it out but has anyone else heard that Lincoln and JFK both wanted to issue our own currency? And both just happened to be assassinated.
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

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Any of us could have made choices that put us at Goldman. We went a different way.

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Yeah, and any of us could potentially commit murder. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Bernie Madoff was a really smart guy, do you respect him? Do you think what he did was radically different from what Goldman Sachs or the others did? He was just a lone wolf without the backing of the Fed, running a small operation, that's the only difference.

I really cannot stand the whole Tea party maxim of "It's a free country, go out and earn what you can." The uber-rich now have their middle class foot soldiers to defend them as if they were somehow the same, while getting them to point their fingers at the poor and keep the focus off of them. What a maroon.

-Tom
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

Taxes are charged based on how much one uses the system to earn their money.

The definition of "working hard" is; what is the amount of your pay check. lol
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

TH:

Interesting articles, and valid points all. I didn't link to the Laffer Curve because I believe it is some sort of master key to economic enlightenment, merely as a starting point for how to think about optimal taxation levels for federal tax revenue generation.

At its most basic, the principle it depicts is unassailable: When you tax a population at 0%, tax revenues are $0. When you tax a population at 100%, tax revenues are also $0 (or very close to it). No one works if 100% of their wages go to the government. So the continuing task of economists and politicians is to find that elusive "moving target" of optimal tax levels which maximize both tax revenues and workforce productivity.

Reed: I guess my point in linking to the other articles above (about how much the 1% pay) was to illustrate just how progressive the tax system already is. They not only pay hugely more in dollars than the average taxpayer, but also as a percentage of income. I agree with almost all of the rest of your post. We'd be soooo much better off if the tax code was drastically simplified. But that would mean undoing decades of bought and paid for tax code manipulation.

I have to ask again (to no one in particular), how much is enough? What PERCENTAGE of your fellow citizens' money do want the government to take from them in your name? 70% 80%? Are you willing to pay more, or should we just soak THEM?

By the way, what do you imagine happening with that huge (one time) influx of money? Think treasury divides it up equally among us peasants and we each get a check for $13.07? Nahh. Whatever they get they spend to buy more votes. Debt won't decrease 1 cent. Seems like a lot of people who advocate soaking the rich are motivated by jealousy rather than economic altruism.

I don't feel better emotionally or financially when the government makes someone else worse off.

Tennarbor:
Three cheers for personal responsiblity! Good for your friend.

These discussions are fun and I appreciate other points of view. Hope I am not coming across as abrasive. Not my intent. Apologies to Glenn if I have wandered too far off course.
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

Originally I was going to reply on this thread saying, yes, I am doing the necessary work... but not getting the necessary pay. So, I am learning stuff here as it turns out this is pretty much how this thread turned out. I think I straightened Glenn out as to what to do with the Wall Street Man. lol
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

Bucknut, the problem with the Laffer Curve was that the presumption of reducing taxes increasing revenues was found to be wrong. While at the extreme ends it's accurate in theory it fails when applied to the real world as a theory for tax reduction.

About the how much is enough question, may be should be asking a different question. When will those at the helm of business step up to provide adequately for all their workforce so that the government doesn't need to subsidize them because for all intent and purpose that is what social programs are turning out to be.
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

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About the how much is enough question, may be should be asking a different question. When will those at the helm of business step up to provide adequately for all their workforce so that the government doesn't need to subsidize them because for all intent and purpose that is what social programs are turning out to be.

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That's getting down to it. But it would more likely turn out that for people who actually "work" for a living would live under socialism while the people who have the money would still be capitalizing.

Actually can people with the money capitalize with it in socialist countries?
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

I'm not sure what defines hard work. Working too hard is easy to define. When your life falls apart, you've been working too hard.

I couldn't run with lower overhead short of using a horse or bicycle. My home is my shop, my personal truck is my work truck, small mortgage, work only local market. I think I come close to big city rates and there's no profit. Never had less free time or money than since getting into the tree biz. Climbing is great and all but I'd like to go fishing one of these years.

edit: I have a ton of free time all winter but I'm too broke to pay attention.
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

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I'm not sure what defines hard work. Working too hard is easy to define. When your life falls apart, you've been working too hard.

I couldn't run with lower overhead short of using a horse or bicycle. My home is my shop, my personal truck is my work truck, small mortgage, work only local market. I think I come close to big city rates and there's no profit. Never had less free time or money than since getting into the tree biz. Climbing is great and all but I'd like to go fishing one of these years.

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Your life can also fall apart if you don't work hard enough. I think your quality of life is directly related to your expectations, like your standard of living. I have seen people grind for all of their lives to maintain a certain standard that suites them, as far as commodities and what not. Also I have known people who highly value their personal "free-time" to go fishing and what not and in many cases sacrifice amenities and commodities that most of us believe that we simply cannot live without.
Bevin if you want to go fishing all day move into a tee-pee or wigwam!
 
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