Who's Doing the Necessary Work?

Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

Glenn,
Appreciate the post. You sound like you've put a lot of thought into the subject and you make some good points. However, calling the sentence flat-out false is a blanket statement. Have you been there? Have you tried the Wall Street route? If not, you're basing your opinion off of what another has told you to think. I'm sorry but I'm not willing to accept yours as the final say on the subject.

What about all the people who start at the bottom, and through the years work their way to the top of a big company? When they achieve CEO status they'll get their foot in the door on Wall Street. Does It happen every day? No. But it can happen.
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

TreeLogic,

You're right, I don't have hard data and statistics on hand. I certainly don't expect you to accept my opinion as the final say on the subject. But reading scores of articles similar to this fuels my thoughts.

From the linked article

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Wharton doesn't publicly address why a specific individual is turned down, but a close examination of the backgrounds of this year's incoming class suggests that Goldberg may have simply lacked the pedigree of his elite counterparts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you and I and everyone on this forum is in the same boat. I think we better start rowing in the same direction. While we argue, the predatory oligarchy continues to tighten its grip on the planet's resources.

I think this discussion is instructive. It's an intellectual exercise that should help us all consider different viewpoints. I'm finding all the opinions here worthy of thoughtful consideration. I freely admit I'm not an expert on economics and I'm here to try and understand how other arborists view our current situation.
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

I think it's interesting as well. And I'm not immune to change. I even find myself willing to look more intently at Guy's suggestion that older, cavity-ridden trees have a place in the urban environment, and shouldn't necessarily be replaced in every situation. The veteran tree thread has been a good read too.
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

How could anyone who proclaims self-interest and the attainment of their own happiness as the highest moral principle not see the inevitable outcome?

It's a contradiction to think that the "self-interest" of the institution would somehow trump that of the individuals within it. Those in a position to take advantage do so with complete moral authority. Are they "forcing" other people or others "forcing" them? There actions do in fact force others. All of us have been forced by their actions to compromise our self-interest and happiness.
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

The flaw in the above thinking is an assumption that pursuit of one's self-interest must necessarily be "against" another's. That is, "to get mine, I must take from someone else". This is demonstrably false, and ignores perhaps the most brilliant insight in economic history: Pursuit of self-interest promotes both the individual and society.

Why? Because in a free market NO transaction takes place unless it is MUTUALLY beneficial. I take out a tree because I value the agreed upon price more than my labor, and the customer values the service received more than his money. We BOTH walk away happy, and we're BOTH better off than before the transaction. I can now use the money gained over a series of these transactions to further pursue my self-interest; I can hire a new guy, I can buy more equipment, I can take my kids to a movie, I can make a donation to the United Way, whatever. Every one of these actions makes me AND someone else better off.

As for there being no opportunity for the little guy in America anymore- jeez, you guys would be depressed in just about any other country in the world. Despite many obtuse politicians' best efforts to change it, America remains the brightest beacon of opportunity in the history of the world. There are 9 million millionaires in America. Nine MILLION. More than any other nation. Were they ALL born Rockefellers and Romneys? There are whole cities in America populated by millionaires almost exclusively! Are they all evil? Have they all gotten to this point by theft, manipulation and greed? Think a few might just be smart guys with a good idea and a better business model? I bet some of them are even named Mr. Jones.
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Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

Bucknut, I get the feeling that you're willfully trying to misunderstand what we're saying.

[ QUOTE ]
There are whole cities in America populated by millionaires almost exclusively!

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Which cities? Do professors, plumbers and paramedics live there?
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

Malibu, Palo Alto, Marco island, Naples, Newport Beach, Chevy chase, and dozens of others. I doubt many of those professions live in these places. But maybe there are plumbers buying up oceanfront property. That's why I included the word "almost".

But those professions and many others sure do a lot of work in those cities for those darn rich folks. Do you guys not find the majority of your business is with people who have disposable income?

I'm not trying to misunderstand it. I'm just refuting it.
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

Buck, that is not the assumption in general. We are all motivated by self-interest but tempered by the interest of others. Many recognize the contribution of others to their success and reward that. Myself, I praise those that operate on that basis. However, we have plenty who don't. They are self-serving at the expense of others. Willing to hire illegal laborers at rates well below that of a legal worker, skirt the law by doing business under the table, and the list goes on of what some will do to earn more at the expense of others. I am specifically looking at Wall St. and how traders have worked. When the sole measure of performance is monetary then how they accomplish that end is with little thought for how it may affect anyone else.

In a straightforward transaction as you've described then certainly there is a balancing of interests. But when you hire someone do you take advantage of them? Do you reward them for contributing to your profiting? Or do you seek ways to reduce their compensation?

As for you millionaire cities, a quick check of the stats shows a median income in the $75K range (half above and half below this number) with 2-4% of families below the poverty line. That doesn't quite qualify as almost exclusively populated by millionaires.

There are opportunities for small businesses to rise and for individuals to attain great financial success. Goldman Sachs CEO, Lloyd Blankfein is an example of humble beginnings. Yes, there are shining examples of just such companies you speak of that have attained great success and wealth in an ethical manner. In Canada, look at Husky Injection Molding. These companies and individuals have accomplished their success in the same regulated and taxed business regimen that others claim to be too onerous. I personally applaud them and look to them for insight into how to effectively grow and prosper.

Please don't extrapolate from my comments a wholesale condemnation or branding of all as evil.

Its those that are wiling to pursue their own self-interests at the expense of others that gives rise to the desire to create a framework of rules or law by which all will operate.
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

Fair enough TH. I guess my point wasn't so much the raw census data, but to demonstrate that there are literally millions of millionaires around. We shouldn't assume them all to be mini Madoffs- not that you did.

I agree entirely with your last paragraph. It's just that it seems like those that are willing to pursue their own self interests at the expense of others are more likely to be politicians than businessmen.
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

[ QUOTE ]
Pursuit of self-interest promotes both the individual and society.

[/ QUOTE ]

An often repeated mantra of the political right, but it's utter nonsense. You may as well be living in 1938 Poland, singing, "All is going well…"

We share the planet. We share the fresh water and the earth's mineral wealth, we share the arable soil and the air we breathe. All of us.

Endless economic growth—that's predominantly benefitting only a few—does not take into account the destruction of natural resources. As our stump cutters and brush chippers wear out, we depreciate them. Eventually we must bear the cost to replace them. But the current global economy does not account for the natural capital that we're consuming at breakneck speed. When Adam Smith wrote The Wealth of Nations, human populations were relatively small and the environment's ability to sustain growth was great. That is no longer the case. Our economic expansion has caused massive environmental pollution. You cannot seriously doubt this.

If you disregard the environment and your fellow humans in the endless pursuit of self-interest, those who come next will eventually feel the pain. Without proper regulation, gigantic profit-making corporations will rape, pillage, and pollute the planet for the benefit of a few hyper-rich people.

This unchecked greed of the hyper-rich and their ability to control the political process is what discomforts me. The hyper-rich don't understand the complex interrelationship between ecology and economics. They don't care. We should.
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

The problem for business people is the way accounting functions. They don't look at the environmental degradation as it has no place on the balance sheet except when forced to deal with it then, it appears only as an expense. So to is the fate of employees, they only exist on the expense side of the balance sheet. Equipment on the other hand is accounted for as both a liability (expense) and an asset. My brother's friend from high school is a VP of finance for a major developer (redeveloped the Vancouver World Expo site and a good sized portion of the rail lands by the Skydome in Toronto). He said while he sees the environmental damage being done, he can't concern himself with it, regardless of how he may feel personally.

The only way a company can benefit from an expenditure on an environmental issue is through charitable donations, these are tax deductible and thus have an upside for them.

No assumptions being made, just observations. What I saw when I managed a sales force was an eye opener on human nature. No matter what the company may have wanted the sales people to push it came down to what was most financially rewarding for them, period. The best of them knew how to maximize their commissions. All the directives given to me to ensure they sold a given item, didn't amount to anything. The company did little if anything to change this.

There is another aspect of how large corporations function today vs. decades ago. The retail sector is a very good example of this. At one time the companies' profited primarily through the margin on the item being sold. Today, more of the profit is actually generated by the money itself. These corps. can leverage better terms from their suppliers on large volume purchases. With that, they then move the product as quickly as possible to acquire the cash as soon as possible. The more they can sell early in the term the longer they have that money to invest in the market. Here is the value of a good CFO or Controller, they are the ones charged with seeing the highest return of that money before it has to be paid to the supplier. That is how the big box retailers can sell at deep discounts. That is also why they offer store credit cards and all sorts of incredible sounding financing deals. Those are underwritten by another entity not them. They get the money from the lender immediately and then turn around and invest it.

Here's where we see a shift away from traditional income to investment income. The market is now king and those that broker those deals the kingmakers.

We've handed our economy over to the financial dealers who have learned how to ensure they profit most regardless of the outcome for the economy as a whole. Add to this that they are also the ones who "manage" pension funds. Ironic that the very funds we pay into for our future well-being are the ones that threaten or immediate future.
 
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