Who's Doing the Necessary Work?

Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

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I really cannot stand the whole Tea party maxim of "It's a free country, go out and earn what you can." The uber-rich now have their middle class foot soldiers to defend them as if they were somehow the same, while getting them to point their fingers at the poor and keep the focus off of them. What a maroon.

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Couldn’t agree more. Headed back to the feudal system. If you follow the money the “Tea party” is largely funded by the wealthy elite. And what a historical manipulation, the actual Tea party was a protest against the British government and the way tax law was written to benefit the East India Tea Company.

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I have to ask again (to no one in particular), how much is enough? What PERCENTAGE of your fellow citizens' money do want the government to take from them in your name? 70% 80%? Are you willing to pay more, or should we just soak THEM?

By the way, what do you imagine happening with that huge (one time) influx of money? Think treasury divides it up equally among us peasants and we each get a check for $13.07? Nahh. Whatever they get they spend to buy more votes. Debt won't decrease 1 cent. Seems like a lot of people who advocate soaking the rich are motivated by jealousy rather than economic altruism.

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For me I’d be comfortable with 25%-35%, straight income tax. The more complicated things get the easier it is to be deceptive. But I really think we’d all be better off with a large portion staying at a state level. I think big is bad in anything- government, religion, union, corporation, you name it. Small groups looking each other in the eye and choosing what fits them best is right in my eyes. It’s too easy these days to say: who cares about them I don’t have to see/deal with them. Being totally honest: I am jealous. Not that they have more money but that they have the system rigged. And now it may be too difficult to go back without a civil war or major hardship. History shows that those in power positions don’t have to suffer as much during those events, it’s all of us that struggle through.
Unfortunately we live in a debt driven society. Very few save to buy something, it’s all about instant results. I think this stems from the Federal Reserve & current monetary situation though. I mean if the government borrows so should we, right?

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About the how much is enough question, may be should be asking a different question. When will those at the helm of business step up to provide adequately for all their workforce so that the government doesn't need to subsidize them because for all intent and purpose that is what social programs are turning out to be

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But why is it on the backs of business? If the subsidy created the market (which is needed sometimes) shouldn’t it also subsidize the externalities? Why do subsidies only seem to benefit business and why don’t they sunset? The farm bill is a good example. I don’t think It’ll ever go away, or be a good idea for it to. I think we’d be better off to have any subsidy sunset for a period, see if it can work without it. It can always get reinstated, and if the period is adequate it won’t ruin the program.
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

I've already got my own postcard lake in the Canadian Shield. Should be there right now eating lake trout for breakfast. Nice cabin, five boats sitting in the yard. Haven't seen 'em since becoming an owner/operator. Might have to sell the cabin and get a tee-pee.
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

Sure they can. Socialism isn't communism, regardless of what is said by the far right. Most countries considered socialist in nature, Sweden comes to mind as does Canada, Norway and Denmark, all have thriving private sectors. Most have banking sectors that are regulated to the effect that they are conservative in lending and require reserves to cover all their businesses whether in banking, investment or insurance. This lead to quicker recovery from the last recession. None are immune to problems and have their fair share of them that create similar tensions to those that exist in the US. However, there are some underlying attitudes that strive to resolve the challenge of encouraging wealth creation while providing for the needs of the whole population.

Would those that are now using the social safety net, the handicapped, old, very young, sick, etc..., be covered by the wealthy of their own accord? The short answer is, in the main no.

Going back to the transition from feudalism to capitalism all we see is a replacement of the landed nobility and gentry with the middle class industrialist and businessmen. This is not the middle class we speak of today, btw. Jobs were lost in the agricultural sector to mechanization and jobs were created in manufacturing. Despite increased wages there wasn't an improvement in the conditions for the working class from those they endured as serfs.

Ultimately, there are people within a society that will burden it. Whether it is just cleaning up the detritus and dead bodies left behind or, providing a minimum standard of living with human dignity at its core, there is a cost to be borne. How that society tends to it's most vulnerable defines it.


Here are a couple of references
http://www2.uncp.edu/home/marson/348_history.html
http://www.ssa.gov/history/briefhistory3.html
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

Ultimately, there are people within a society that will burden it. Whether it is just cleaning up the detritus and dead bodies left behind or, providing a minimum standard of living with human dignity at its core, there is a cost to be borne. How that society tends to it's most vulnerable defines it.

Beautifully said.
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

Reed: This short article ties into yours somewhat (It mentions the effect of automation on jobs). It's right on topic I think. My favorite quote from it:

"Americans feel strongly that fairness is important. They also disagree about what fairness is, exactly. A free-market economy, however, makes is very clear what fair pay is — whatever somebody else is willing to offer for your labor. And sometimes, it’s nothing."

There are just certain realities you can't escape, and this is one. Yeah, different societies tinker around the edges and blur the lines between free-market and socialism, but when you go too far and replace the judgment of the market with the judgment of some magically omniscient bureaucrats regarding economic priorities, this happens.

Article about fair pay

P.S. Those job rankings are a bit random I think. Audiologist is # 5 on the list? Ridiculous. They probably already use lots of software to test patients' hearing. I like # 20: "Elementary school teachers, except special education." What? Special needs kids get LESS human interaction? No thanks. Anyway, it does make you think.
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

Bucknut, the rankings are anything but random nor are the occupation titles. Go to the O*Net (http://www.onetonline.org/link/summary/29-1181.00) to see the description they used as the basis of their analysis(this one is for audiologist). These titles are the ones given to the SOC code. So where it say "except special education" that is not in the context of this ranking but just how the soc code occupation describes it.

They looked at the tasks described to determine how susceptible to computerization a given task is and overall the level of the "engineering bottlenecks" which are present in the description. While it still has plenty of assumptions and they do give a caveat to the results it's still a pretty good eye opener to trends in the job market for the not too distant future. I'd certainly look at this list and see what the implications are for an area my kids may be considering pursuing. It would give them pause to investigate further how their careers might change over time and what they can do now to prepare for what is anticipated.

We still have this notion that there are jobs that if you just get the education you'll be set for life. I've dealt with many who have been blindsided by this belief. What I'll be telling my kids is to assess how they are developing their skills for the future of their chosen careers to enable them to adapt to the coming changes.

As for the nourishment issue, malnourished is not the lack of food, its the lack of proper nutrients needed by the body. Because there is obesity doesn't mean that these people are getting what they need. But what they do get is the feeling of being full.

Like trees there can be nutrients in the soil but it is inaccessible to the tree. Thus the tree is malnourished. Hmmmmmm, food for thought.....
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

TreeHumper,

You summed it up well when you said in order to survive and thrive, you really do need to be able to adapt to market changes. Very key.

-Michael
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

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We still have this notion that there are jobs that if you just get the education you'll be set for life. I've dealt with many who have been blindsided by this belief. What I'll be telling my kids is to assess how they are developing their skills for the future of their chosen careers to enable them to adapt to the coming changes.


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As my oldest finishes middle school this has been the dinnertime conversation. What will the best job choices be in 10-15-20 years?
My answer for her has been attorney but, this is mostly because 14 year olds are quite good at arguments. LOL
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

Yeah Ryan, I say to them, I wish I knew now what I thought I knew then.


My youngest are 19-21 and they are just now awakening to what their futures will hold in store for them.

Scary exciting....
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

Bucknut- those pics remind me of some I've seen taken in Cuba. Taxis from the 50's ( in mid 90's) running on kerosene & cooking oil. Crazy!
TreeHumper- I'd guess we'll be automated by drones? Who knew my old shirt about birds with chainsaw feet would come true. Foresters still low on the list, so maybe some hope.
Every time I catch one of the "doomsday" shows on TV I contemplate how an end to electronics situation would play out. Those cars Bucknut posted could still run. Most arborist skills, very useful. Guys from the trading floor? Bet they'd trade the greed skills in then. Then again some would make the adjustment and be good team members too. Bottom line is; history shows all good things come to an end. Just a matter of how good is defined.
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

Agree with you all- we need to be vigilant and adapt. We shouldn't assume that because we do physical labor, seemingly far removed from "computerization", that we are safe.

Look at the recent thread on Mike Poor's Kboom. Got me thinking: that incredible machine is basically making a huge step toward automating tree removal. Maybe we're at the Atari stage of tree work automation, and in 30 years we'll have the XBox. Like Optimus Prime with a laser saw.
grin.gif


Blacksmiths and farriers had one of the most necessary and secure jobs in history until that dang Henry Ford came along! Are those Kboom guys a bunch of Henry Fords? Food for thought.
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

The shift in construction to prefab is actually causing a shift toward automation in construction. Being a crane operator is going to be a useful skill for installation that didn't exist before.

One of our savings grace is the element of working in awkward spaces... Not easy for a robot.
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

It's not one system over another but a hybrid of the two, like those of the countries I referenced earlier.

It's strange that the foundation of social welfare was created to serve the needs of the aristocracy and landed gentry. That is, those of wealth and means. The serfs were needed by them to provide labor in their fields and men for their armed forces. Control of this group was vital to the maintenance of the feudal system.

Today, we see the opposite, where labor is seen as only a cost without any asset value. Its then seen as something to minimize and unburden whenever possible. The push to mechanization and subsequently computerization is characterized by its labor savings. The funny thing is that with advancements in science we've seen an increase in our longevity and an increase in population growth. Demand grows thus supply grows. Employment rises. For some it was better but not all. That's life as we make it to be. Not as it has to be.

Do we really need to have poverty and suffering? And by this I mean working poor. Those who labor to produce the results that the owners reap the rewards of? Do you not produce revenue and profit for your employer? Do you not take risk in your job? Is there no shared downside? Can we not devise a system that provides incentive and reward such that society's burden to provide for all of its constituents is reduced to only those that are the most needy? Would this not reduce the costs to society as a whole thereby achieving a reduced tax burden or at the least a better allocation of our taxes to continually educate and retrain?

Surely, when a company advises its workers to take advantage of these "handouts", or models it's business structure to offload expenses to governments, is it not the same sort of welfare we complain about but for corporations?
 
Re: Who\'s Doing the Necessary Work?

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As far as the economic gains, well yeah, there's a big gap between the biggest money makers and the next group down. It's a free country. Make what you will. Make what you want. We all have the opportunity if we're willing to fit the Wall Street mold.

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TreeLogic,

The last sentence is false. Your statement is a perpetuation of the meritocracy myth. The average American probably has almost no chance of making millions on Wall Street. Perhaps they have a slightly better chance than they have of replacing Ray Lewis as a starting middle linebacker for the Baltimore Ravens.

We can't replace Ray Lewis because we're not as genetically lucky. We can't replace the hyper-rich Wall Street royalty because the castle doors are bolted shut. The opulent class has managed to bolt the doors with family connections and tuition that average Americans cannot afford. How many brilliant, hard-working poor kids go to elite universities like Harvard and Yale? How many have the personal network in place by accident of birth?

We still have the "Divine Rights of Kings", it's called hereditary capitalism. We having a ruling class and we're not in it!

None of what I'm saying is an excuse for the average person to put forth less effort. It's a request for the average American to improve their critical thinking skills, educate themselves on the issues, and use what little influence we have to improve the system before we are left with no influence at all.

I think one part of the problem is this --> Too many average people falsely believe (Joe the Plumber?) they too can have a $300 million dollar yacht if they just work harder. They view themselves as temporarily embarrassed multi-millionaires.
 
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