Who runs legit?

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What I read before is that when the homeowner hires an uninsured contractor they become the general contractor and that is how the homeowner insurance can get out of paying.

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Where did you read this?
 
HO insurance is "all risk" meaning anything that happens to the home is covered except for a small number of hazards that are explicitly noted as not covered, e.g. floods.

Damage to the home by illegititmate firms is definetly covered.
 
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In the previous photo, the city driver was cooperating with the tree service, albeit illegally. I did not see any money change hands, although that is what I suspect is happening. I see the city picking up debris left by tree services on a fairly regular basis here.

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It happens a lot in this area, too. City and county workers are also known to have use of equipment on evenings and weekends to do side work. Also line clearance employees doing about the same thing.
 
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In the previous photo, the city driver was cooperating with the tree service, albeit illegally. I did not see any money change hands, although that is what I suspect is happening. I see the city picking up debris left by tree services on a fairly regular basis here.

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It happens a lot in this area, too. City and county workers are also known to have use of equipment on evenings and weekends to do side work. Also line clearance employees doing about the same thing.

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Hey Dan, aren't you from Atlanta?
 
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In the previous photo, the city driver was cooperating with the tree service, albeit illegally. I did not see any money change hands, although that is what I suspect is happening. I see the city picking up debris left by tree services on a fairly regular basis here.

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It happens a lot in this area, too. City and county workers are also known to have use of equipment on evenings and weekends to do side work. Also line clearance employees doing about the same thing.

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Hey Dan, aren't you from Atlanta?

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If you are asking "Dan" as in Danielson, yes, I am here.
 
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DanielSon, I hear you and I understand where you’re coming from, in fact I think most readers on this forum, as Sean said, “feel your pain.” You feel your ability to be competitively priced and to be profitable has been destroyed by companies which evade payroll taxes and workers’ compensation premiums. I do not doubt that your intuition is correct when you guess that most Atlanta tree services are avoiding required overhead that you are paying—although the lack of Atlanta tree service responses thus far is not evidence for your claim, as others have already noted.

I imagine this is an issue for many small service businesses throughout the country, especially during the current economic climate. It appears your solution is to sell your saws and hang up your spikes; that seems to be an entirely appropriate response to your circumstances. It’s not fun to have potential customers perceive your proposal as some eye-popping price gouging.

I wish you luck and good fortune in future endeavors; you certainly have plenty of passion and enthusiasm.

Those of us who choose to stay in the tree industry will still have to face these problems daily. Jamin Mayer offers one solution, an information package. Sean offered some helpful questions for each of us to ask ourselves, and Riggs gave us some real world pragmatism. There have also been a few comments on the customers’ responsibility when hiring contractors. Does anyone have documentation or can anyone point us to specific court cases in specific jurisdictions where the customer has faced financial consequences from hiring an “illegitimate” tree company? As Tom noted, “most customers have no clue about their potential liabilities.” Perhaps we need to do a better job of educating our clients. Are there definitive cases where the customer has not been protected by their home owner’s policy?

I work in southeastern Virginia, locally known as Hampton Roads. One competitive issue that we have here is bulk waste city trucks picking up the debris from a tree removal. It’s difficult to compete with a “tree service” that has no need to pay for trucks, brush chippers and their associated maintenance and operating costs, including disposal fees. Attached is a picture of a city-owned bulk waste truck working in conjunction with a tree service (a tree service with their own chip truck and chipper). Even after I spoke with the city driver about the tree service being in violation of local bulk waste pick up ordinances, the driver picked up the material anyway. If you look to the right in the photo, you can see a log being carted to the waiting city truck. I’m curious about how many other U.S. localities have this problem.

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Hey Glenn,

I appreciate your thoughts. Yes, I do have a lot of passion/energy. I really hope that I will find a living apart from trees. But trying to do that is one of the harder things I have done yet. Changing careers is difficult. Especially out of one that is fun.
 
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In the previous photo, the city driver was cooperating with the tree service, albeit illegally. I did not see any money change hands, although that is what I suspect is happening. I see the city picking up debris left by tree services on a fairly regular basis here.

[/ QUOTE ]

It happens a lot in this area, too. City and county workers are also known to have use of equipment on evenings and weekends to do side work. Also line clearance employees doing about the same thing.

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Hey Dan, aren't you from Atlanta?

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If you are asking "Dan" as in Danielson, yes, I am here.

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Nope, Dan, "Treeco"
 
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What I read before is that when the homeowner hires an uninsured contractor they become the general contractor and that is how the homeowner insurance can get out of paying.

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Where did you read this?

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This is also true in New York depending on the insurance. I dont remember where I saw or heard it.
 
I am new to the buzz. This is not just an arboriculture problem. I have a Commercial Pilot's license. I am rated by the FAA to be an airline pilot. I make more money as an arborist. I love flying and would love this to be my career, but I cannot survive at the pay rates. If you can get a job flying today your starting pay at a regional airline will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 20k.

I love arboriculture too and am happy with my career. We run completely legit. There is a town about 20 miles from us called Springfield, Ohio. Everyday approximately 75 tree companies leave this town and come out to many of our communities. They are "door knockers":
http://dayton.craigslist.org/lab/1995202447.html

They scam people:
http://www.whiotv.com/money/24328959/detail.html

and:

http://www.springfieldnewssun.com/tree-trimmer-dies-after-falling-90-feet-968063.html

They kill themselves!!!!

I cannot compete with these guys... No insurance, pay cash, etc.

The only way I have found to combat it is: I show up everyday and I give my best.. 100%... If that doesn't work then I will have to change careers too.

It is my experience that people who operate non-legit are also unprofessional. We charge much more than the non-legit companies and work for customers who are searching for professionals. There is a market for professionals. We work for people who love their trees. Cost is not the determining factor in us getting their work. If cost was the determining factor... we would have no work.

Just my $.02....
 
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I do not doubt that your intuition is correct when you guess that most Atlanta tree services are avoiding required overhead that you are paying

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So, you don't need a double-blind experiment to judge people, is that what you are saying? You strike me as the kind of person who likes to have all the facts in hand before making judgments about people or things.

The fact remains that Danielson's rant is based on assumptions, not facts, and not even first hand experience with the company that got him mad in the first place. He see's people that he assumes are Hispanic and then deduces from that assumption that they are illegal immigrants. Ironically he acknowledges that the "illegals" work harder than most of the white guys he knows. He also seems to know an awful lot about how they will only work for cash which can be an issue if/when you get audited by WC. No need to worry though, he would NEVER hire an illegal immigrant to work for his company, after all he's "Runs Legit".



How about you Danielson DO/DID YOU RUN LEGIT? I'm not asking you to proclaim that you are/were breaking the law, I'm simply asking you to say that you are/were not.
 
Banjo, I think everyone here realizes that DanielSon made a few too many assumptions, however that does not diminish his main point, which highlights the competitive disadvantage properly insured, payroll taxpaying companies face when bidding against those who are evading required overhead. He has a valid concern, even if it was not expressed with all the facts or political correctness. As you noted, it's obvious that we shouldn't make sweeping generalizations based on ethnicity.

It seems to me that it is a worthwhile exercise to investigate areas where "reputable" (define that however you wish) tree services are at a competitive disadvantage and explore possible solutions.
 
HOLY CRAP!!!! You agree with some of my points and I agree with the points you just made! Maybe that earthquake in Indonesia today shook us up a bit too.
 
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How about you Danielson DO/DID YOU RUN LEGIT? I'm not asking you to proclaim that you are/were breaking the law, I'm simply asking you to say that you are/were not.

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Banjo, I think my past has been spelled out pretty clearly within this thread. But if you need to hear it again I will be happy to tell you.

I speak fluent Spanish and I learned it doing tree work. Why? Because there is a severe shortage legal, hard working, drug free employees in this area. Period.

Did I run legit????? Not in all areas. My heart hurt because I could not stand having 2 faces.

On one side I am telling the client how "legit" we are, and on the other side I knew that I was pushing the limits in many areas. And in some cases flat out blowing through them.

So yes, I did not run legit in all areas.

Did I feel a disturbance in my gut about it???? YES!!!!!! ALL THE TIME!!!!!!! I FELT LIKE A TOTAL HYPOCRITE!!!!!

For YEARS I felt this way and I HATED IT. I felt like two people. I don't know if you have seen them, but for those who have, I am a pretty transparent person. Lying is not something that sets well with me.

And honestly, it was/is scary as hell to make the commitment to stop pushing the envelope.

It is scary to sell all my gear (bobcat, chipper, chip truck, f250, grapple). It is scary to stand up and talk about this subject because I know that once I do, I can't go back.

(And in fact, I am doing it partly for that reason, because I don't want to go back.)


What happens when the next big hurricane comes up? I doubt you will believe this, but we made $170,000.00 in only 4 1/2 work days during Ike pulling trees off houses.

ONE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS!!!!!!

That is a Helluva lot of money!!!!

And it scares me to death that I am talking about this subject publicly.

If you didn't notice, you never heard me talking about this in the past????? Why??? I wasn't ready to make a commitment. Once you do, you can't go back.
 
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The fact remains that Danielson's rant is based on assumptions, not facts, and not even first hand experience with the company that got him mad in the first place. He see's people that he assumes are Hispanic and then deduces from that assumption that they are illegal immigrants. Ironically he acknowledges that the "illegals" work harder than most of the white guys he knows.


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Banjo, assume "facts" about Atl from way up there in Rhode Island, just look around.......

How many services have we had stand up yet????

ONLY ONE......

NATREES. And he has my utmost respect.

What he is doing is VERY hard down hear.

Pick up the phone and call some tree services in Atlanta yourself..... Do the numbers for yourself before you start spouting off "facts" of which you really know nothing about.

Just call around and do your own poll.... Then you will know the "facts".......

Besides, look at the words of NATREES in the other thread

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I feel your pain brother. I've been in business 20 years this year in the Atlanta market and I can tell you, there is no enforcment of workers comp law here in Ga at least in the tree business...........There is good work out there and there are several good legal tree care companies in the Atlanta area that are staying afloat.

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How many tree services does he mention that run legit??? Only several...... NOT TONS..... just a few..... (out of 700).

So before you spout off...... pick up the phone and call for yourself.
 
You could keep whatever equipment is paid for and run a one/two man show off the reputation you've built up. Pick and choose the jobs you'd enjoy doing and are profitable. Even loose the chipper and haul branches. You don't have to completely quit, just adapt. Go part time and do your computer work as well. They could work together. The trees for exercise and the computer for rest. Or research an area that has room for another tree service and move. Or worst of all get a real job oooooh.
 
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Banjo, I think everyone here realizes that DanielSon made a few too many assumptions,

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Glenn,

I know that it "seems" as if I am making assumptions carte blanche. Because how could it POSSIBLY be that SO many tree guys were breaking the laws like I am claiming????

Certainly there is NO WAY that it could ACTUALLY be as bad as he says!!!!

I understand... Our natural tenancy is to be skeptical of such outrageous claims.

But I have been in the tree industry here for 13 years.

I have talked to other businesses here in ATL who have read this thread and WON'T comment on it.

Why? Because they don't want to take the step.

As outrageous as it seems..... It really IS that bad.
 
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Hey you could keep whatever equipment is paid for and run a one/two man show off the reputation you've built up. Pick and choose the jobs you'd enjoy doing and are profitable. Even loose the chipper and haul branches. You don't have to completely quit just adapt.

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That is what I am doing. It is not all loss. I did $745 last sunday in 5 hours with the CLIENT as my rope man.
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This saturday I will do $1300 (if I can find a legal ground guy)...

Anyone know of one? Its easy pickins.... all prunin and no chippins....
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Ya...don't use clients on the ropes. I tried that when I'd take my gear bidding and do instant jobs. Do it enough and you'll know why not. Maybe tree service is too accessable of a home based business and will always be too competitive with many falling by the wayside. They say the same about restaruants, that most fail, too competeitive. Some make people rich. I don't think it's easy but possible to get ahead. Blame the banks and government currently.
 
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