rfwoodvt
New member
- Location
- This side of eternity.
Single comment there Jamin, "AMEN!"
Who runs legit?
- Thread starter DanielSon
- Start date
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Daniel,
I understand your frustration and sentiment.
The catch is that you'll need to cross reference the 700 ATL tree services with the TreeBuzz user list. what is the ratio?
Being legit has been a growth and evolution process for me. Early in my career, during the 'Evil Tom' years I was a complete jackleg. Over time I improved my standards. My skeleton closet is full, has open doors but is pretty dusty cuz there haven't been new bones added for years.
When I moved to Austin I made the decision to not take on any side work for pay. If friends need work done I give them names of friends in Austin who can do the work. When I do that I explain to them that they will likely pay a little more for the insurance and skill of my friends. Too often people don't realize that their homeowners insurance might, or might not, cover injuries or damages.
I doubt that anyone in any city who is not running legit will ever stand up her on TreeBuzz and admit the fact.
I understand your frustration and sentiment.
The catch is that you'll need to cross reference the 700 ATL tree services with the TreeBuzz user list. what is the ratio?
Being legit has been a growth and evolution process for me. Early in my career, during the 'Evil Tom' years I was a complete jackleg. Over time I improved my standards. My skeleton closet is full, has open doors but is pretty dusty cuz there haven't been new bones added for years.
When I moved to Austin I made the decision to not take on any side work for pay. If friends need work done I give them names of friends in Austin who can do the work. When I do that I explain to them that they will likely pay a little more for the insurance and skill of my friends. Too often people don't realize that their homeowners insurance might, or might not, cover injuries or damages.
I doubt that anyone in any city who is not running legit will ever stand up her on TreeBuzz and admit the fact.
macrocarpa
Branched out member
- Location
- Midwest
Were I am illegals have taken over the landscaping industry but not tree service from what I have seen, they will eventually. But I sold all my big equipment and downsided because I don't want to compete with the redneck population. If I wanted $1200 for a removal, another "company" would do it for $500. And hardly any are running legit businesses even without the illegal issue.
So I now do PHC by myself and small pruning by myself and backlog bigger jobs and sub contract other legit arborist companies to help me knock out some bigger scale pruning (1099's legit) when needed.
Shady folks can't compete in PHC, IMO. And if they do it is much easier to enforce because of the licensing required. PHC would be my suggestion, big removal gear and personnel to me is more of a headache than it is rewarding.
Just my .02$
Happy with my niche, 100% legit, work alone, nobody to F##K with me and I like it that way!
So I now do PHC by myself and small pruning by myself and backlog bigger jobs and sub contract other legit arborist companies to help me knock out some bigger scale pruning (1099's legit) when needed.
Shady folks can't compete in PHC, IMO. And if they do it is much easier to enforce because of the licensing required. PHC would be my suggestion, big removal gear and personnel to me is more of a headache than it is rewarding.
Just my .02$
Happy with my niche, 100% legit, work alone, nobody to F##K with me and I like it that way!
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
Danielson,
I meant a person doesn't own up to doing something right. That stand up and say so, whereas a person owns up to doing something wrong. I was typing and dashing out the door.
Ya, a few skeletons. Enough to survive the lean times. Some justification from big business breaks, corporate bail outs, lack of enforcement of whole businesses making it harder on me.
I don't compete well with removal only/ spike prune companies on easier, accessible jobs.
I have a lot more chance with the people that are concerned about quality, dependability, reliability than people with only the lowest price in mind. Some of those jobs I don't even bother bidding when I can screen them out on the phone.
If it is a technical job that a bucket truck can't reach without heavy impact, I'm a step ahead. If any pruning/ preservation/ diagnosis work is involved, I'm a step ahead. When its rigging jobs over valuable house/ landscape/ etc, I'm a step ahead.
If I'm looking at a removal bid, I'll look for buried trees, stem girdling roots, hangers, conks, etc. Its a good way into people's mind that all tree services are not the same. The down side is that I am often at a bid for an hour, on my dime, if they didn't come into it asking for what qualifies as a consultation.
I do a lot of customer education. I have been meaning to put together a bid/ consult binder that shows myself and crew using spurless techniques contrasted to spike damage,
rigging techniques over houses and delicate gardens, testimonials, arboricultural concepts like taking care of root zones, pre-construction preservation, proper/ improper pruning, diseases, outcomes of topping and other abuses, etc, etc.
People could put in accident statistics, WC rates and point to the reason for said rates, articles about homeowners losing the house over a lawsuit from "hiring" an illegal operation, or more the point "employing" a bunch of guys to work for the homeowner, as that is what it sounds like is the case when people "hire" the illegal companies/ people doing sidework without insurance. Not scare tactics, but the reality of the situation, same as pointing out if they have a horribly dangerous tree over the swing set.
I'm sure that I'd have a lot harder time working in the south. Tougher crowd, and maybe the economy has been hit worse, don't know. My area has more people caring about their trees, and less get 'er done than some areas.
I meant a person doesn't own up to doing something right. That stand up and say so, whereas a person owns up to doing something wrong. I was typing and dashing out the door.
Ya, a few skeletons. Enough to survive the lean times. Some justification from big business breaks, corporate bail outs, lack of enforcement of whole businesses making it harder on me.
I don't compete well with removal only/ spike prune companies on easier, accessible jobs.
I have a lot more chance with the people that are concerned about quality, dependability, reliability than people with only the lowest price in mind. Some of those jobs I don't even bother bidding when I can screen them out on the phone.
If it is a technical job that a bucket truck can't reach without heavy impact, I'm a step ahead. If any pruning/ preservation/ diagnosis work is involved, I'm a step ahead. When its rigging jobs over valuable house/ landscape/ etc, I'm a step ahead.
If I'm looking at a removal bid, I'll look for buried trees, stem girdling roots, hangers, conks, etc. Its a good way into people's mind that all tree services are not the same. The down side is that I am often at a bid for an hour, on my dime, if they didn't come into it asking for what qualifies as a consultation.
I do a lot of customer education. I have been meaning to put together a bid/ consult binder that shows myself and crew using spurless techniques contrasted to spike damage,
rigging techniques over houses and delicate gardens, testimonials, arboricultural concepts like taking care of root zones, pre-construction preservation, proper/ improper pruning, diseases, outcomes of topping and other abuses, etc, etc.
People could put in accident statistics, WC rates and point to the reason for said rates, articles about homeowners losing the house over a lawsuit from "hiring" an illegal operation, or more the point "employing" a bunch of guys to work for the homeowner, as that is what it sounds like is the case when people "hire" the illegal companies/ people doing sidework without insurance. Not scare tactics, but the reality of the situation, same as pointing out if they have a horribly dangerous tree over the swing set.
I'm sure that I'd have a lot harder time working in the south. Tougher crowd, and maybe the economy has been hit worse, don't know. My area has more people caring about their trees, and less get 'er done than some areas.
[ QUOTE ]
Being legit has been a growth and evolution process for me.
[/ QUOTE ]
It has with me too. It is just that I feel frustrated with the process.
Regarding the "cross reference" of atl tree guys vs the tree buzz user list, I am only asking for one or two.
Certainly there would be one or two don't you think?
But everyone has those "little secrets" that force them not to say anything.
I mean cmon......
Treebuzz is all about raising the bar....
So why hasn't EVEN ONE stood up and said "we run legit and are proud of it!"
Not even one.........
How can we as an industry raise the bar if everyone's skeletons keep them from taking a stand?
Does anyone else find this bizarre? Almost everyone here talks crap about safety, but NO ONE from Atlanta will stand up and say that they REALLY follow the rules and do it right.
Being legit has been a growth and evolution process for me.
[/ QUOTE ]
It has with me too. It is just that I feel frustrated with the process.
Regarding the "cross reference" of atl tree guys vs the tree buzz user list, I am only asking for one or two.
Certainly there would be one or two don't you think?
But everyone has those "little secrets" that force them not to say anything.
I mean cmon......
Treebuzz is all about raising the bar....
So why hasn't EVEN ONE stood up and said "we run legit and are proud of it!"
Not even one.........
How can we as an industry raise the bar if everyone's skeletons keep them from taking a stand?
Does anyone else find this bizarre? Almost everyone here talks crap about safety, but NO ONE from Atlanta will stand up and say that they REALLY follow the rules and do it right.
- Location
- Everywhere
It sounds to me as if your calling out a certain company, maybe a certain someone? I know there are many legit companies in Kentucky, but only a handfull even vistit here let alone post. Just knowing there are not a lot of companies nor individuals from the Alanta area on here, you have to be calling out a certain someone. Oh..... I work in Ohio for a 110% legit company and run my own here in Kentucky 110% legit. So, who you calling out?
boreality
New member
- Location
- boreal forest
Even if a company was completely legit does that mean they know what they're doing? A hack could afford insurance but they may not have a clue when they're over their head on a tough removal. Some removals do require experience, training, and proper equipment. Some have said anyone can put a tree on the ground may not know what a bad situation is. More skill and risk than proper pruning IMO.
I take pride in my removal skills, throw in the hort education consulting for free and think the solution to shoddy workmanship is regulated certification. I'm still wondering why I'm a ISA Cert Arborist. All those manditory insurances are wasted money if you work properly. But what is optional, (the hort education and ISA cert) are what makes me work safe and properly take care of trees. I wish I could not pay insurance on anything and just be more careful. It's the scammers and careless that make us all pay insurance but it's really about insurance company profits.
I feel your pain Danielson but I'm not sure your fighting the right battle. I'm not sure I am either. It is sure frustrating to see my competition operate the way they do and work as hard as I do to break even, if I'm lucky. Not fair.
I take pride in my removal skills, throw in the hort education consulting for free and think the solution to shoddy workmanship is regulated certification. I'm still wondering why I'm a ISA Cert Arborist. All those manditory insurances are wasted money if you work properly. But what is optional, (the hort education and ISA cert) are what makes me work safe and properly take care of trees. I wish I could not pay insurance on anything and just be more careful. It's the scammers and careless that make us all pay insurance but it's really about insurance company profits.
I feel your pain Danielson but I'm not sure your fighting the right battle. I'm not sure I am either. It is sure frustrating to see my competition operate the way they do and work as hard as I do to break even, if I'm lucky. Not fair.
[ QUOTE ]
It sounds to me as if your calling out a certain company, maybe a certain someone? I know there are many legit companies in Kentucky, but only a handfull even vistit here let alone post. Just knowing there are not a lot of companies nor individuals from the Alanta area on here, you have to be calling out a certain someone. Oh..... I work in Ohio for a 110% legit company and run my own here in Kentucky 110% legit. So, who you calling out?
[/ QUOTE ]
Urban,
I am not calling out anyone... Actually, I am. I am calling out 90%.
Actually, they are calling themselves out. Because if they were running legit, they would just say so right?
To find a company breaking the rules here, all you would have to do is close your eyes and randomly put your finger down on just about ANY tree listing in the phone book and you would likely hit one that runs illegals. It is THAT bad.
Seriously, it is SO bad hear that in the last 2 years (yes you read it right TWO YEARS), I only remember seeing one crew without Hispanics. (again, I am not saying that all Hispanic workers are hear illegally..... that is not the discussion on this thread).
My point it that I have only seen ONE crew in two YEARS!!!!!
(Except the big nationwide companies.)
So no, I am not intending to put pressure on any business specifically.
Again, don't you find it weird that we are not getting one single person stand up?
It is THAT bad......
It sounds to me as if your calling out a certain company, maybe a certain someone? I know there are many legit companies in Kentucky, but only a handfull even vistit here let alone post. Just knowing there are not a lot of companies nor individuals from the Alanta area on here, you have to be calling out a certain someone. Oh..... I work in Ohio for a 110% legit company and run my own here in Kentucky 110% legit. So, who you calling out?
[/ QUOTE ]
Urban,
I am not calling out anyone... Actually, I am. I am calling out 90%.
Actually, they are calling themselves out. Because if they were running legit, they would just say so right?
To find a company breaking the rules here, all you would have to do is close your eyes and randomly put your finger down on just about ANY tree listing in the phone book and you would likely hit one that runs illegals. It is THAT bad.
Seriously, it is SO bad hear that in the last 2 years (yes you read it right TWO YEARS), I only remember seeing one crew without Hispanics. (again, I am not saying that all Hispanic workers are hear illegally..... that is not the discussion on this thread).
My point it that I have only seen ONE crew in two YEARS!!!!!
(Except the big nationwide companies.)
So no, I am not intending to put pressure on any business specifically.
Again, don't you find it weird that we are not getting one single person stand up?
It is THAT bad......
[ QUOTE ]
I feel your pain Danielson but I'm not sure your fighting the right battle. I'm not sure I am either. It is sure frustrating to see my competition operate the way they do and work as hard as I do to break even, if I'm lucky. Not fair.
[/ QUOTE ]
You got that right..... Not fair.....
I know that there is no guarantee of "fair", but still.....
I am just upset because I want to do the right thing, and it means that if I do, I can't stay profitable.
Anyway, I guess we are not going to see even one stand up and claim that they run legit.
I feel your pain Danielson but I'm not sure your fighting the right battle. I'm not sure I am either. It is sure frustrating to see my competition operate the way they do and work as hard as I do to break even, if I'm lucky. Not fair.
[/ QUOTE ]
You got that right..... Not fair.....
I know that there is no guarantee of "fair", but still.....
I am just upset because I want to do the right thing, and it means that if I do, I can't stay profitable.
Anyway, I guess we are not going to see even one stand up and claim that they run legit.
Find your niche and continue to do business. If anything your letting these guys get the better of you. Find ways of doing phc or add landscaping into your business or lawn care something to be different than these guys. Its a recession and things are going to be tough for the people that are legit.
I'd much rather see you investing your time in getting running again than bitching about other peoples business. Is it right that they do what they are doing? No. But you can't physically stop them so I'd stop letting them get under your skin and show them who is boss.
Shoot, spend time with your kids when you have an urge to air other people dirty laundry about. They are human beings too and need to make a living. Find a better way of beating them to the work.
The big national companies can do it why can't you? They HAVE to run legit or they will get in serious trouble. They can actually foot the bill rather than fold up and call it a loss.
I'd much rather see you investing your time in getting running again than bitching about other peoples business. Is it right that they do what they are doing? No. But you can't physically stop them so I'd stop letting them get under your skin and show them who is boss.
Shoot, spend time with your kids when you have an urge to air other people dirty laundry about. They are human beings too and need to make a living. Find a better way of beating them to the work.
The big national companies can do it why can't you? They HAVE to run legit or they will get in serious trouble. They can actually foot the bill rather than fold up and call it a loss.
treehumper
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ridgefield, NJ
Since moving here from Canada I've found that the majority of companies don't run legitimately. Everything from employing illegal aliens or those working with false papers to not paying sick days, OT, vacation days, etc...
In Ontario tree services do have an advantage when it comes to these things. They are exempt from most of the employment laws since it falls under the seasonal agricultural category.
Do we police ourselves and our profession or just suffer the consequences?
In Ontario tree services do have an advantage when it comes to these things. They are exempt from most of the employment laws since it falls under the seasonal agricultural category.
Do we police ourselves and our profession or just suffer the consequences?
[ QUOTE ]
They are human beings too and need to make a living.
[/ QUOTE ]
Smile..... I don't even know how to respond to that appropriatly, so I think I will just be quiet on this one.
[ QUOTE ]
The big national companies can do it why can't you?
[/ QUOTE ]
Again..... smile.....
They are human beings too and need to make a living.
[/ QUOTE ]
Smile..... I don't even know how to respond to that appropriatly, so I think I will just be quiet on this one.
[ QUOTE ]
The big national companies can do it why can't you?
[/ QUOTE ]
Again..... smile.....
[ QUOTE ]
Since moving here from Canada I've found that the majority of companies don't run legitimately. Everything from employing illegal aliens or those working with false papers to not paying sick days, OT, vacation days, etc...
Do we police ourselves and our profession or just suffer the consequences?
[/ QUOTE ]
That is my point. Right now we are suffering. I think something should be done.
Since moving here from Canada I've found that the majority of companies don't run legitimately. Everything from employing illegal aliens or those working with false papers to not paying sick days, OT, vacation days, etc...
Do we police ourselves and our profession or just suffer the consequences?
[/ QUOTE ]
That is my point. Right now we are suffering. I think something should be done.
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
Danielson,
I feel your pain, too. But I think that the point people are getting at is that trying to fight the tide is not helping.
If you can be profitable in web development, you will be likely be in a market with more barriers to entry for competition. The internet will be around as long as there are tree services. Its an option.
Does being profitable mean not dropping prices? Have you dropped to the point where supply and demand cross. If you had a illegal competitor bid $4500, and you were at $7500, was the extra $3K for insurance what the market will bear? Is it possible that insurance is worth $6000 but not $7500?
Have you reduced your prices on jobs where there is more competition than ever, such as easy removals? In my estimation, these are the jobs with little room to work against illegal competition where the GL insurance safety net is least needed (of course there is the injury aspect). What would you have bid the job for two years ago as compared to today?
Do you have payments working against you when there are guys willing to bust their backs for little money, so equipment has less of a benefit, as the overhead is lower and people can chew up and spit out employees?
Have you trimmed back on spending/ increased revenue sources in any way? Are you trying to fill any niche markets in new ways? Are you offering what other people might be getting from an average tree service for an average price (e.g. high impact on the lawn, light final clean-up, allowing the customer to do the non-technical work) to save a little money?
Are there ways to speed efficiency in material handling?
Are you selling differently/ marketing differently/ offering different levels of service than before?
Can you supplement your income in a way that will allow you to only take the jobs where others don't have the required skills to complete them?
Can you increase your skill set in new ways?
Are you contacting past satisfied customers looking for follow-up pruning work, and explaining that you are taking new customers if they know of anyone needing anything done well and insured?
Just some thoughts that might possibly help.
Wishing you success in a different marketplace.
I feel your pain, too. But I think that the point people are getting at is that trying to fight the tide is not helping.
If you can be profitable in web development, you will be likely be in a market with more barriers to entry for competition. The internet will be around as long as there are tree services. Its an option.
Does being profitable mean not dropping prices? Have you dropped to the point where supply and demand cross. If you had a illegal competitor bid $4500, and you were at $7500, was the extra $3K for insurance what the market will bear? Is it possible that insurance is worth $6000 but not $7500?
Have you reduced your prices on jobs where there is more competition than ever, such as easy removals? In my estimation, these are the jobs with little room to work against illegal competition where the GL insurance safety net is least needed (of course there is the injury aspect). What would you have bid the job for two years ago as compared to today?
Do you have payments working against you when there are guys willing to bust their backs for little money, so equipment has less of a benefit, as the overhead is lower and people can chew up and spit out employees?
Have you trimmed back on spending/ increased revenue sources in any way? Are you trying to fill any niche markets in new ways? Are you offering what other people might be getting from an average tree service for an average price (e.g. high impact on the lawn, light final clean-up, allowing the customer to do the non-technical work) to save a little money?
Are there ways to speed efficiency in material handling?
Are you selling differently/ marketing differently/ offering different levels of service than before?
Can you supplement your income in a way that will allow you to only take the jobs where others don't have the required skills to complete them?
Can you increase your skill set in new ways?
Are you contacting past satisfied customers looking for follow-up pruning work, and explaining that you are taking new customers if they know of anyone needing anything done well and insured?
Just some thoughts that might possibly help.
Wishing you success in a different marketplace.
Riggs
Participating member
- Location
- Bryn Mawr , Pa.
your killing me man . seriously . Our own government doestn't run legit , why are you freaking out on Alanta tree services's ? Mail man is a Bit*h isn't he ? People run there bussines in this economy that makes it right for them . twelve years in the bizz and your crying like a b*tch . I don't get it . If worksman comp is the only thing that makes you legit than you are in a world of sh*t. I'm legit , I pay they pay , grow the Fk up and stop crying . Sounds like you have no work and you think a litle Mexico /Guatamalo is taking your bread and butter . For the record , no immagrants work for me . Doing right by a client is Legit enough for me . I am very expensive ,so forget that rant . Get better at selling , no money in crying the blues . ohhhhhhhhhhhhh . deposit that in the bank . There has to be money in Alanta , they don't have any sport teams , Braves ? Flacons? Hawks?Please . there has got to be a legit tree service because there isn'nt a legit sports team .Bye bye Bobby Cox
allmark
Participating member
KentuckySawyer
Participating member
- Location
- Louisville
Limbwalker operates 100% on the level. There are plenty of operations in our city that are shady operations, paying workers in cash, not providing PPE, insurance coverage, or any type of safety training. We price our services on the high end. There might be 100 tree services in Louisville at any given time, but we do not consider all of them competition. We have maybe 2-3 companies that we compete with seriously.
I do think our city could benefit greatly from more government involvement in the industry (City tree ordinances, oversight on pruning in prominent places, monitoring of what business pay their full share, etc.), but I don't see it coming any time soon.
I do think our city could benefit greatly from more government involvement in the industry (City tree ordinances, oversight on pruning in prominent places, monitoring of what business pay their full share, etc.), but I don't see it coming any time soon.
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
boreality
New member
- Location
- boreal forest
No wonder Hammer went broke after watching that video production.
