Who runs legit?

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This thread has turned assbackward and made many of you look like clowns. Making your business legitimate is the only way to make money over the long term. Your assets are only protected with the right insurance in place, and you have to keep yourself from being sued or turned in by employees who invariably have some falling out.

There is a whole other world of work out there for legitimate business - HOA's, apartments, city/government contracts, business parks, etc., all typically require the proper insurance to be in place. Even insurance companies will keep you on file for no-bid contracts once they have established your credentials and fairness.

Employees are tools. They work to make you a profit; if they cease to be effective in that role, fire them today and do the goddamned work yourself. But don't ever post on a forum how generous and sainted you must be to pay worker's compensation, and how far back that sets your profits. If someone is paid under the table, they typically are going to ask for more money - i.e, as a contract climber would. If they are on payroll, they typically receive less hourly, but have a little more peace of mind if they get maimed at work while making you money.

The bureaucracy and paperwork is a wonderful obstacle to overcome. It's a great filter and barrier to entry. This is why you don't see the illegal immigrants purchasing cranes and grapple loaders or living in large homes or water skiing behind MasterCraft boats. They are far more likely to end up as tools for the building of other's profits. Let's don't pretend that they are the most efficient providers of tree care and an impossible force to compete against. You may have misgivings, but don't go believing that crap. That way lies damnation . . .

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Dru, this is an excellent, thoughtful post but the other world of treework you reference is much smaller and less profitable than where the lion's share of treework is, in residential, IMO. Town work, for example, is done here super cheaply, and with the skyhigh insurance limits required, it isn't worth it IMO. Being on a no-bid list with the insurance cos. would be cool, but how often does a bad storm hit one's home area?? And when it does, you are already busy as heck with your regular customers anyway.

The flybynights put a significant dent in the residential treework around here. True, most won't last in biz but others will replace them quickly so there is a net bad effect on the legits.

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"Business simplified by archidruid"... agree with many of your points! This problem can be overcome and is overcome by many of us on a daily basis! It is a waste of time to cry about it!

I will argue that my are employees are not "tools". My employees are people with families... I've got a lot of productive employees that have been with me a long time, I just can't deal with the "tool" concept!

Cory's point is well made too. I think they probably effect each market differently.

For the record I have 5 mastercraft boats! One for each of my "lake houses". So, the "fly by nights" aren't winning in Ohio either.... they still get under my skin!
 
Ok Blinky, you are right about the "feeling sorry for yourself" comment. I misjudged your "life distilled" comment.

And maybe you are right about me feeling sorry for myself too... Honestly, I dont know. I have a LOT of feelings about this whole subject and they are hard to straighten out.

We are the same, in that we both operate with no equipment. I agree with you there.

However, I disagree the aparent perception you have that it is ok to choose which laws you are going to follow.

The thread was named "Who runs legit?" Not "Who runs legit according to their own made-up, self imposed standards."

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I'm not ashamed of how I run, I'm doing all I can and when I can do more I will.

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Hmmmm... Not ashamed, but you will "do more" when you can? Translation: Whatever it is that you are currently doing is not adding up to what you know you should do.

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If it hurts somebody, it's wrong, if it doesn't, it's OK.

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I take checks and cash and I give 5% off for cash because I absolutely despise banks and will not put a dime in one that I'm not forced to.

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So are you reporting all of it? Is failing to report hurting any one person? So if it is not, would it be wrong? Is that running legit or are you breaking the law?

And your answer.......

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When laws are made so that we can all understand them then I'll think about living within them.

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But then later you say...

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I comply with the law but not because I give a damn about it. I do what I can for myself and the people closest to me, that's my law... when you grow up you'll probably understand a little better.

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So which is it?? Do you comply with the law or not? Are you running legit, or not?

It is obvious that you are not.

It is obvious that only one in Atlanta has stood up and said "yes, we run legit"

I am not here saying that the system we live under is perfect. Far from it. It pisses me of that our system is so f'ed up that the same mayor of Roswell GA, who mandates that the cops write tickets to people for hiring illegals, would have a SUPER difficult time finding a fully legit crew to cut his own trees. Literally.... there are just that few of them around here.

That situation sucks.

It sucks that if I want to run fully legit, I have then become the minority in my area.

It sucks that I have talked to MULTIPLE highly respected tree services here in ATL about this thread and they can't and won't comment because of their "wink wink, nod nod" hiring practices.

That sucks..... The situation sucks....

How can it be that our great country has so turned that the person who wants to fully comply and do the right thing becomes the minority???

Or am I just being "immature" because I feel that following the laws is the legit and right thing to do.

Who on treebuzz wants to stand up like Blinky has and tell me:

"Mark, you are just being immature and feeling sorry for yourself. Once you grow up, you will come to realize that you only have to follow the laws that you want to. Once you grow up, you will learn a set of laws that exceeds and surpasses the laws of the goverment. But for now, you are just immature, because you so naivly think that you actualy have to follow all the laws"


Sorry Blinkey, I don't buy it.

I don't run the country, I don't make the laws. I am just a garden-variety citizen who is trying to do the ACTUALL right thing.

Blinkey, I think you have it all backward.

You call me immature for trying to do the ACTUALL right thing and then re-define what is "right according to Blinkey" in order to defend what you do...

This, in my opinion, is the problem and true immaturity.

This line of thinking which justifies law breaking is the whole purpose of the thread.

As stated earlier, the thread was named "Who runs legit?" not "Who runs legit according to their own made-up, self imposed standards."

But in our bickering, I think we are starting to uncover some truth here.....
 
I don't mean to imply that workers are tools in some derogatory way; rather, they function from the perspective of capital in the same manner. I just bought a new 346xp, and now I love it like a son. But if I took it up a tree and it didn't run, or it kept starting late or acting weird, I'd fire it down on its f*cking head. I don't have enough money to operate inefficiently, whatever the cause. Good employees will pride themselves in being an asset to the company.

I'm sure you run a high end business, and are better off for it. And honest tree work is no place for a get rich quick scheme, you tend to earn the money you make here; I wouldn't infer that the living is easy or successful companies are undeserving somehow.

I just don't like this thread much because I came into the industry in Oregon during the early 90's with a piece of garbage saddle and a manila flipline and no idea how to prune or dismantle these huge trees . . . but all these climbers around me were getting the job done, with little gear, all the time. There was nothing special about it and I don't remember any bitter complaining. They taught me their moves and they kept me safe. I don't see how a pile of sh*t-eating dogs running around topping trees for bottom dollar are going to make a takeover bid and control the industry that these guys built.

That's what I fight to improve - An industry with integrity, and my part in it. Whimpering online is not befitting to that legacy.
 
Every state has different rules regarding what's "legit".
So yes, Blinky does operate under a different system of rules than you DS. And from what I read of his last post he runs "legit".

With every state likely having different rules regarding what's "legit" it becomes very difficult to be able to compare apples to apples. What's not "legit" in GA may be perfectly "legit" in NC. I think down in FL you gotta have all sorts of beurocratic BS to be able to pick up a stick.

I also think being subject to a "Higher Law" has the most merit. But following that logic may get you crucified.
 
Here is what i agree with Blinky.

Rules and regulations could never keep me out of a tree. If for some reason me being in a tree is illegetimate than so what and by all terms and definitions i have been in trees illegitimatly many many times since ive started. I do the best that I try to do everything to standard. right now workmans comp liabilty health insurance, standard car insurance. And its also true that youll never make any money if you dont work under all that coverage. I have realized though that the less money you make the better. The less you have to pay those guys (goverment or insurance agencies) and the more you begin to rely on true relationships and networking. Working within communities.
Eating good food, getting sufficient sleep, being with people who love you and climbing trees. priorities. if for some reason i get to the point where I cant afford insurance to climb trees, you'll still know where to find me.
 
This thread is painfully boreing

Danielson, why dont you, instead of complaining about everyone not running legit and bidding jobs cheaper than you, explain to customers why they should hire you, what you have to offer and the benefits of hiring you over "the other guy". If they dont care and dont hire you anyway and youve tried all that you can, get another job
 
I know that most if not all of us have operated illegally at one time another. Alot of it was just ignorance. Especially in the early days when we were just going off on our own. Most learn as they go about what is required to run a legal business and eventually dot their i's and cross their t's. So nobody is totally above reproach. Once you know then it becomes a conscious choice to follow or ignore the rules. Personally I think the risk involved in breaking the law outweighs the cost of following it. I also think that operating within the law isn't cost prohibitive.
 
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Hmmmm... Not ashamed, but you will "do more" when you can? Translation: Whatever it is that you are currently doing is not adding up to what you know you should do.

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NO translation, what I said is exactly what I meant. I'll never stop trying to do more and better for the people I love. If I get to a place where I can hire my guys and give them benefits, that's what I'll do... but to do that I'd have to work a crew, own trucks and all that. I'm not getting any complaints from the guys that work with me, I pay good.




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So are you reporting all of it? Is failing to report hurting any one person? So if it is not, would it be wrong? Is that running legit or are you breaking the law?

And your answer.......

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You want me to discuss what taxes I pay online? No, I don't report cash, you happy?. Are you saying YOU report all the cash you get?

How strict is your standard? Does speeding or driving overweight count? Muffler mods? Utility MADs? Who can police all that?

And the answer is...... You.
Nobody but YOU can make you go as far as you can, in your endeavor to be perfect. No one can make a higher law for you than that, not one you can comply with.


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So which is it?? Do you comply with the law or not? Are you running legit, or not?

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I happen to comply with the laws regarding my business because I'm not going to deliberately bring the law down on my own head. But I live a tighter life than the government specifies in most cases and yes, I use my own judgment because I trust it.
Pay attention to how laws are made and by whom they're made... and then tell me you think laws are an accurate representation of the will of the people and right and wrong. Laws are made by crooks I wouldn't trust to wash my dog.


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Sorry Blinkey, I don't buy it.

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That's not what I said, but if you're a family man your attitude will change as your kids grow and you see what kind of world you have to prepare them for... it changes you. I don't think you'll see things the way I do, but I do think you'll realize that higher laws are in the human spirit and the ones the politicians make are pretty much all traceable back to control and profiteering. Money runs our government now and I don't trust it. IF we ALL lived as though our word and our integrity were the most valuable thing we had, there would be no need for laws.

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But in our bickering, I think we are starting to uncover some truth here.....

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I wasn't calling you immature, you seem perfectly normal to me. I'm just older and time has a way of stripping away everything that isn't important... even more so if you happen to make as many bad decisions as I have.

You seem to think that I'm a lawbreaker. I'm not, I live a clean life, I have no secrets, I'm not hiding from anybody and nobody's hiding from me. If that ain't living right I don't know what is.

You will never eliminate the competition, it's the nature of this country. Competition sucks right? So do most customers come to think of it. When you get right down to it...... people suck. .....are you seeing what a dead end road that is? I know every inch of it.

You can find your perfect base of customers by picking your favorite jobs and sorting out the demographics. If you can find an effective way to make them find you, when they want tree services you'll be golden. You'll start 'owning' neighborhoods where everybody uses you and one job leads to another.
Starting where you are now? If you play your cards right by the time you're 45 you'll have so much repeat, year around business the hacks will be meaningless and you'll be so legit you can run for office.
 
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