VT for Lanyard/swivel held by double fisherman's

[TreeCo]

VT for Lanyard/swivel held by double fisherman\'s

This attached photo was of an earlier version and is revised in photos 5 or 6 postings down.
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Here's a lanyard idea I'm working on. What I'm looking to do is to put a slack tender on a solid D-ring. I started out using tie wraps to hold the swivel but moved on to holding it in place by including it in part of the double fisherman's. Of course I'm borrowing a lot from the ideas I've seen here. There is one unique part though....and that is how I tie the double swivel in place using the two double fisherman's knots. In the front and back photos there is an extra swivel shown to the side for clarity.

Feedback please. What do you guys think of holding the swivel in place using the double fisherman's knots? There is no load on the swivel of course but do you think it compromises the fisherman's knots?

Tress cord is sta set 8mm
1/2 inch rope is NE Saftey Blue.
Saddle is the Butterfly

Dan Nelson

 

[TreeCo]

Re: VT for Lanyard/swivel held by double fisherman\'s

This attached photo was of an earlier version and is revised in photos 5 or 6 postings down.
==========================================

Here is the back side. The rope moves freely through the swivel. This is very compact, light and inexpensive. It is a little difficult tying.

I'm looking for feedback on the saftey of using the double fisherman's knot in this manner.

Dan

 

[stevebullman]

Re: VT for Lanyard/swivel held by double fisherman\'s

im no expert but it looks a bit dubious......not sure if the rope will bit as it should with a piece of metal in the way. having said that.....it does look cool.

 

[davespencer]

Re: VT for Lanyard/swivel held by double fisherman\'s

Give it a try for a while, just set the knots real good and have a close look at it before every climb (and during if its a long one).

If the knots were not set well this would untie itself for sure.

Dave

Go with what youre comfortable with

 

[Norm_Hall]

Re: VT for Lanyard/swivel held by double fisherman\'s

I like it. Something new. I would suggest marking the tails where they exit the knot with an indelible marker and check them after each use to see if they are working back into the knot. Great idea.

 

[tophopper]

Re: VT for Lanyard/swivel held by double fisherman\'s

You've already tied directly to the dee,
Why the swivel? why not tail the lanyard thru the inside of the dring and you wouldnt need the swivel at all for tending.

 

[stevebullman]

Re: VT for Lanyard/swivel held by double fisherman\'s

the tail through the d doesnt always work very efficiently.....least not for me. i have tried it.
actually the main problem i had with that method was that the bridge on my butterfly would rub against the friction hitch if i was side on to my anchor point. with a krab and pulley it clears the bridge

 

[TreeCo]

Re: VT for Lanyard/swivel held by double fisherman\'s

[ QUOTE ]
Give it a try for a while, just set the knots real good and have a close look at it before every climb (and during if its a long one).

If the knots were not set well this would untie itself for sure.

Dave

Go with what youre comfortable with

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is a revised version that I like better and addresses Dave Spencers observation that if the knot is not dressed tightly it would tend to come untied.

This version has both wraps of both double fisherman's knots inside the swivel. This works much better and is a little harder to tie but it does not pull the double fisherman's apart.

Feedback welcome,

Dan

 

[TreeCo]

Re: VT for Lanyard/swivel held by double fisherman\'s

And here is the back side and this shows a little better. This is my best photo to date for those on dial up. This version is much better and does not pull the double fisherman's apart.

Dan

 

[Mahk_Adams]

Re: VT for Lanyard/swivel held by double fisherman\'s

Dan;

How about using a #2 brass swivel? It is similar to a dog leash snap, like item 24, p. 42 of the 2004 Sherrill catalogue, but the eye is bigger. Feed the rope through the eye and clip the snap end to the D ring. This would eliminate having to incorporate the swivel into the double fishermans knots.

 

[RescueMan]

Re: VT for Lanyard/swivel held by double fisherman\'s

[ QUOTE ]
How about using a #2 brass swivel?... This would eliminate having to incorporate the swivel into the double fishermans knots.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the best suggestion so far.

And here's an excellent example of the benefit of calling a knot by its correct name rather than some vernacular. If you would call those two terminal knots what they are, you'd realize the problem you're creating.

They are, of course, not "double fisherman's knots", they're double overhand nooses. Whether the swivel is captured by one or two of the turns of the nooses, it can still pull the nooses open (loosen them). While the nooses are less likely to become untied in the revised version than the original one, this is placing a possible pull on the nooses where it doesn't belong, opening them rather than closing them.

I would either attach a snap directly to the D-ring as Mahk suggests or capture the swivel in the noose itself (rather than the turns, same as the D-ring).

- Robert

 

[davespencer]

Re: VT for Lanyard/swivel held by double fisherman\'s

Rescueman,

I can't speak for everyone else but when he called it a double fishermans I knew exactly what he meant. This is the name I learned for it and while I know others, it seems pretty standard in the world of arboriculture. This may not cross over well with other disciplines like rock climbing, rescue, and caving, but in my experience (quite a bit in all), the knot itself is not well accepted. people do not like it and will not use it (as well as friction hitches). Arboriculture seems the most progressive knot wise of all the rope disciplines. As such we can call it whatever we bloody well want!/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif Make sure to pass on the name change to all your friends.

Dan,

With this new revised version, it semms like it would be much more secure, but it fixes the snap shackle to one angle. Have you tried to pull slack through it? Does it still feed smoothly?

Dave
/forum/images/graemlins/iconcan.gif

 

[TreeCo]

Re: VT for Lanyard/swivel held by double fisherman\'s

Thanks for the suggestion Mahk. Thanks RescueMan for the proper I.D. on the knot. I was fooling around with it on the ground putting weight on it and in practice the double nooses stay tight. There is very little force pulling in the direction opening the noose because the only force it sees is the force needed to advance the VT.

That being said, I realize it's is not the correct use of the knot and I'm going to get the brass swivel Mahk suggested.

I was hoping I had discovered a use for a knot that was going to enable me to leave my mark on the world. A crater isn't what I had in mind. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Is this the #2 brass swivel you are talking about Mahk? I don't have Sherrills catalog handy but this is one I found at their web site.
http://www.wtsherrill.com/iwwidb.pvx?;multi_item_submit

Thanks for the input.


Dan

 

[RescueMan]

Re: VT for Lanyard/swivel held by double fisherman\'s

[ QUOTE ]
Arboriculture seems the most progressive knot wise of all the rope disciplines.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dave,

I think you mean "stubborn", don't you?

If you call a spade a spade, you know that you can dig a hole with it. You can call it a rottweiler if you want to and it might dig a hole for you or it might bite you in the arse.

Suit yourself, but don't call it "progressive".

- Robert

 

[TreeCo]

Re: VT for Lanyard/swivel held by double fisherman\'s

[ QUOTE ]

Dan,

With this new revised version, it semms like it would be much more secure, but it fixes the snap shackle to one angle. Have you tried to pull slack through it? Does it still feed smoothly?

Dave
/forum/images/graemlins/iconcan.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Dave,

Thanks for the humor on the knot names.

It feeds smoothly. I pull a little to the side to take in slack instead of straight back. This keeps the D-ring from moving back and forth. I'am use to that techinque from using a micro ascender lanyard for years. This is a little more compact than that $3 brass snap Sherrills is selling. I looked for a swivel/dogleash at home depot yesterday but didn't find one with a fixed hole large enough to work. I have a have dozen of these double swivels around so I thought I'd see what I could do with one of them.

I do like how it works.

Dan

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Re: VT for Lanyard/swivel held by double fisherman

I'm really concerned about loading the DFH/DOH like that. To me it seems too likely to invert the hitch. What purpose does it serve?

In the attached pic you'll see a brass swivel that I've used as a slack tender on a climbing hitch and a lanyard. To capture the eye of the swivel you could try putting the eye inside the turns of your hitch.

 

[TreeCo]

Re: VT for Lanyard/swivel held by double fisherman

[ QUOTE ]
I'm really concerned about loading the DFH/DOH like that. To me it seems too likely to invert the hitch. What purpose does it serve?



[/ QUOTE ]

The only purpose it serves is to hold the slack tender in place. There is a very minimal load while slack tending but no chance of inverting the hitch.

I was only playing around on the ground with this set up. I'll be using a brass swivel when it comes in.

Thanks for the feedback.

Dan

 

[Tony]

Re: VT for Lanyard/swivel held by double fisherman

Why don't you extend the tails of the anchor knots, run them through the eye of the swivel and terminate them with a stopper knot holding the eye tight against the bottom of the anchor knot?

Do you follow?

 

[TreeCo]

Re: VT for Lanyard/swivel held by double fisherman

[ QUOTE ]


Do you follow?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes,good idea.

Dan

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Re: VT for Lanyard/swivel held by double fisherman

i think treat the knot as a machine; and see you are invading the gripper, that is securing the whole knot.

The last idea with the tails; would place any loading on tender to pull knots tighter etc.; instead of pulling at coils.

Altenatively, plastic wireties to bind D to swivel?

Increase Noose/fisherman's/barrels to 3 turns?

i like Tom's idea, or just reeve tail of lanyard thru D, to use D as mount and tender.