Unpaying customers

Leroy said:
Quote and estimate I agree with your interpretation, to me there is no room for argument by the definition of the words. A bid or proposal is more ambiguous I would stay away from those personally.
Click to expand...

Both quote and estimate allow for a change in the price (but most tree customers don't see that...though they will for other trades). Bid and proposal are more formal and less open gor change of price.
 
owScott said:
Proposal to me means this what I am going to do, no fluctuation. Quote and bid mean the same. Estimate seems to imply there could be some fluctuation in price. More important than the word you choose is what is stated in the contract. If you don't state there can be some uncertainty then what the contract states stands. Communication is key, if you overlook a detail that's on you.
Click to expand...
Agree. Spell everything out. Line item each tree and service. Details on what each service is.

But unfortunately you always have some clueless individuals.
 
An example of what we do. This is a proposal we received back (and wrote on our times for scheduling purposes...so all pen marks the client never seen).
20190414_183225.webp
I somewhat caution throwing 2 trees together (like the 2 Blue spruces on this proposal). Because what happens if the one spruce is small and landscaper or homeowner does it? Recently this happened to me and I had to tell the client that that tree would have taken me 5 mins...I don't think he really believed me. He then insisted that I reinvoice him minus the $7.@@. Btw this was a multiple times previous customer.
 
I see that now quote is synonymous with estimate, I don't know how I got it in my head that a quote was fixed.
 
evo said:
So this conversation is starting to touch down on something I’ve been pondering for a while. Does it come down to the language used? And if so what are the legal definitions?
Bid?
Quote?
Estimate?
Proposal?

To me personally when I hear these words my first instinct is that a bid or quote is a fixed price. While a estimate or proposal allows for some wiggle room for adjustments from both parties.

Tree work is a different animal, however home builders often go over budget or time. Auto mechanic do as well. Some give options for quality of parts, some just slap the cheap part in and charge for the more expensive part. Plumbers fixing a leak may run into greater issues and then charge more.

How is tree work different, and what is the determining lines in the language?
Click to expand...
Very good question. I would say foremost there is no parts or materials to buy in tree work. We are selling time and expertize. As professionals we should know our business and how complicated and how long a job should take. Here is the challenge for us. Some of us are more successful than others at seeing the details and our skill level. With other trades there are hidden issues. With tree work there isn't any hidden issues its all in front of us, weather, employee issues, equipment issues aren't the same. I have had all these problems and it never affects the price. We are talking about changes in the job from the customer side. In cases where I gave a quote to remove a tree then they built something or did something to alter the jobsite is different and IMO changes the contract requiring a change in the price. Have done that and have never had a customer argue with it. On a few very large removal jobs I discussed with the customer that they would just pay for the exact amount for wood disposal because it was going to be hard to estimate and that I probably will over estimate that cost to be safe and they would probably save some money. Other than that I am curious about other situations where estimating the job can be difficult. Because going back at the end and just saying it took longer brings a lot of things into question. I see no problem in the beginning telling the customer there may be changes in the price and have them agree and put it on the contract. But once the agreement is made and you start the job its locked in. It would be like the customer saying when your done that you did the job to fast, are you going to not charge the full amount. Doesn't work like that.
 
climbhightree said:
An example of what we do. This is a proposal we received back (and wrote on our times for scheduling purposes...so all pen marks the client never seen).
View attachment 58926
I somewhat caution throwing 2 trees together (like the 2 Blue spruces on this proposal). Because what happens if the one spruce is small and landscaper or homeowner does it? Recently this happened to me and I had to tell the client that that tree would have taken me 5 mins...I don't think he really believed me. He then insisted that I reinvoice him minus the $7.@@. Btw this was a multiple times previous customer.
Click to expand...
Wow, that’s detailed. I rarely go into that effort.
One major reason why is say I detail out wood removal, I’d bring my mini and move logs. The default is buck the wood into fire wood rounds. The customer changes their mind after the wood is cut and now it takes 100 trips instead of 10.
The other is it implies that if they don’t want the stump ground now due to budget, they can call you back and expect the same price weeks, months or even years later.
I typically offer estimates and only once have gone over. The client was very understanding, a few grumbles, but when I explained my reasoning they agreed. I think it was changing their mind on hauling wood.

For clients I trust and who trust me I will just do a day rate. What ever we get done is what we get done. My hourly rate is reserved for root work, airspade, or critical areas jobs. Often I may say either that they can set a cap on the time limit, and that is what they get done. Or I stress that I THINK this won’t go over X amount of time, but I’d budget y amount and I will still try for x price.
 
Leroy said:
I see that now quote is synonymous with estimate, I don't know how I got it in my head that a quote was fixed.
Click to expand...
Well I would define estimate as an guess give or take. When people refer to quoting somebodies words I believe that means word for word accurate. By the way how is Kalamazoo?
 
owScott said:
Very good question. I would say foremost there is no parts or materials to buy in tree work. We are selling time and expertize. As professionals we should know our business and how complicated and how long a job should take. Here is the challenge for us. Some of us are more successful than others at seeing the details and our skill level. With other trades there are hidden issues. With tree work there isn't any hidden issues its all in front of us, weather, employee issues, equipment issues aren't the same. I have had all these problems and it never affects the price. We are talking about changes in the job from the customer side. In cases where I gave a quote to remove a tree then they built something or did something to alter the jobsite is different and IMO changes the contract requiring a change in the price. Have done that and have never had a customer argue with it. On a few very large removal jobs I discussed with the customer that they would just pay for the exact amount for wood disposal because it was going to be hard to estimate and that I probably will over estimate that cost to be safe and they would probably save some money. Other than that I am curious about other situations where estimating the job can be difficult. Because going back at the end and just saying it took longer brings a lot of things into question. I see no problem in the beginning telling the customer there may be changes in the price and have them agree and put it on the contract. But once the agreement is made and you start the job its locked in. It would be like the customer saying when your done that you did the job to fast, are you going to not charge the full amount. Doesn't work like that.
Click to expand...

I agree but also disagree. There have been a few trees that I have bailed out of because my original plan wouldn’t work due to unseen hazards. Previously topped trees often call for impromptu plans. Round here a Doug Fir might be topped at 90’ and have 50-60’ regenerated leaders sitting precariously but obscured from the ground. A simple rigging plan may change into something different once the climber sees the rot and cracked hazard beam.
It’s not all the time, and like I said above critical areas are a big one for me. I may look at a job 8 months before it can or should be done, only for the site to turn into a shit hole in the winter. Unforeseen..
 
evo said:
I agree but also disagree. There have been a few trees that I have bailed out of because my original plan wouldn’t work due to unseen hazards. Previously topped trees often call for impromptu plans. Round here a Doug Fir might be topped at 90’ and have 50-60’ regenerated leaders sitting precariously but obscured from the ground. A simple rigging plan may change into something different once the climber sees the rot and cracked hazard beam.
It’s not all the time, and like I said above critical areas are a big one for me. I may look at a job 8 months before it can or should be done, only for the site to turn into a shit hole in the winter. Unforeseen..
Click to expand...
I agree, those rare instances do happen and most reasonable people when explained will understand, I concede your example is valid. I recently had to postpone a job because of weather, I didn't quote the job to be done in the snow. Not going to change my price but will change when the job gets done. Customer understood. Maybe I should rethink on my printed proposal sheet adding language to the affect that unforeseen issues may result in rewriting the contract. Good conversation, we should all think closely what we say and promise people. I would like to edit my statement saying there are no hidden issues, of course there can be. I guess the question is what is truly unforeseen and whats our mistake.
 
Last edited:
evo said:
Wow, that’s detailed. I rarely go into that effort.
One major reason why is say I detail out wood removal, I’d bring my mini and move logs. The default is buck the wood into fire wood rounds. The customer changes their mind after the wood is cut and now it takes 100 trips instead of 10.
The other is it implies that if they don’t want the stump ground now due to budget, they can call you back and expect the same price weeks, months or even years later.
I typically offer estimates and only once have gone over. The client was very understanding, a few grumbles, but when I explained my reasoning they agreed. I think it was changing their mind on hauling wood.

For clients I trust and who trust me I will just do a day rate. What ever we get done is what we get done. My hourly rate is reserved for root work, airspade, or critical areas jobs. Often I may say either that they can set a cap on the time limit, and that is what they get done. Or I stress that I THINK this won’t go over X amount of time, but I’d budget y amount and I will still try for x price.
Click to expand...

We almost always come back to do the stumps later, sometimes even a week or more later depending on weather etc. My proposal price is good for a year, and each tree/item is. The only time I won't let them break up the items on the proposal (when we go to do the work) is if the job isn't close by.

I have a conversation with the client saying the wood will be coming down in 6-8' lengths, and will be left in those lengths if the wood is staying (or hauled out in those lengths if we are removing it). I actually recently added verbiage saying this in my proposals.

Btw - if we are to cut the wood to firewood lengths or move the wood to another location on the property, it is strictly time and material.

Ps--I have all the verbiage saved in quickbooks for each item. So all I add in is the tree type and location
 
I'm still surprised by how many people ask the day of if removing the brush from their yard is included in the price. We don't write that on the quote, I just assume it's a given.
 
Leroy said:
I'm still surprised by how many people ask the day of if removing the brush from their yard is included in the price. We don't write that on the quote, I just assume it's a given.
Click to expand...

I got calls about vacuuming sawdust out of the grass. Accompanied by the threat of non-payment. After that the cleanup details were redefined. No vacuuming..
 
New2trees said:
PS, My dumb ass had a neighbor ask how much I would charge to remove two trees that leaned over his fence. I asked how big they were and he said about 8" across, so I told him I would do the job for 250 dollars.

View attachment 58924

The smaller of the two trees was about 12" the one in the picture is about 26" lost my ass on this job. But I have since done a front light and some plumbing work for the same guy.
Click to expand...
Oh man the look on your face when you actually got to the job...... I should have looked at the job with the crane operator not at different times.
 
Get a lawyer verbal is an agreement your entitled to intial agreement price
They will also have to pay your fees lawyer court costs. Aslo estimate isnt a set price. Judge will take into consideration if it was crane mistake and hold them liable if they quoted the job with small crane.
Let one side and your regret it. Typically a letter from lawyer will kick defendant in gear.
Get your money bro.
Had similar situation lawyer didnt even charge me. Said he sees it all the time typically super rich asshole on a power trip.
 
Also one review wont hurt you at all. It will actually hurt them next time they need someone to do any kind of work. If they do find someone they upcharge them for the possibility of a hassle post their names in ever service provider companys, angie home advisor thumbtack etc. My other customers have told me clients that messed with me have been complaining about not being to hire anyone in our area.
 
Superak31 said:
Get a lawyer verbal is an agreement your entitled to intial agreement price
They will also have to pay your fees lawyer court costs. Aslo estimate isnt a set price. Judge will take into consideration if it was crane mistake and hold them liable if they quoted the job with small crane.
Let one side and your regret it. Typically a letter from lawyer will kick defendant in gear.
Get your money bro.
Had similar situation lawyer didnt even charge me. Said he sees it all the time typically super rich asshole on a power trip.
Click to expand...
I'm taking your advice I'm entitled to at least 3600 but more like 4400 I'll take a thousand off for the tree we couldn't do because of the crane co. Your right it's always the rich ones tryin to get over on ya money wise. so in the end they will wind up paying a bunch of extra money an serves them right trying to get over on people like us who bust our ass to make a living. Thanks for the advice that was really helpful
 
Bummer they're so adamant about you using a crane. Weird that they'd insist on a crane without taking the expert's input. Wonder if they understand much about rigging and that you can get it done with little turf damage.
Nice manicured lawn and flower beds or something?
 
Bango Skank said:
Bummer they're so adamant about you using a crane. Weird that they'd insist on a crane without taking the expert's input. Wonder if they understand much about rigging and that you can get it done with little turf damage.
Nice manicured lawn and flower beds or something?
Click to expand...
Nope was just a regular lawn nothing special just trees were big and over the house and garage which I could easily have rigged but like you said even though I explained they just did not see how safe rigging will be..
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

New threads New posts

Back
Top Bottom