Unpaying customers

Norsetreeman said:
.... So I look at a job the customer doesn't want anything roped down over their house and garage ok no problem I'll use a crane and they agree.

....... won't pay more money to crane company so they can use bigger crane but also won't just let me rope tree down which I'm capable of doing. .....
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1st mistake: letting the customer tell you how to do the job. Your job is to prune (or was it remove?) the tree without damaging their property. How you accomplish that isn't their job to figure out. Does your contract with the owner specify a crane? If not, tell him you are going to finish the contract that both of you signed and he will be expected to pay the contracted amount - no more, no less.

2nd mistake: no written contract with crane company.

I don't think the customer should owe more for the extra crane cost. He agreed to a price. 1st responsibility for that extra cost should be the crane company. You said they looked at it before quoting you right? That is 100% on whoever looked at it. If the owner, I'd be on his phone 3 times a day until he relents. If somebody else looked at it, tell the owner he can take the money out of that guy's pay, but not yours for misquoting the job.

If all else fails, I agree with @colb that you need to finish the job even if that means hiring another crane and eating the cost. Or...if walking away now means you have a lower loss do that.

Apologize to the customer
*"Sorry I trusted that crane company. I was misinformed that they were reliable and honest - they obviously are neither.
*"I do not want that to reflect on my reputation. I'd love to finish the job for you as quoted. If you will let me rope everything down I will call my insurance agent and have you listed as "additionally insured" for the duration of this project just so that you know you are protected.
*"If you insist that we use another crane, unfortunately that is going to cost a little more (just add enough so you aren't losing money).
*"If you do not want us to do the second tree under either of those circumstances, I understand. I would ask you though if we completed everything as expected for the first tree that you pay in full for that. If there was something unsatisfactory about the first tree that you think it appropriate to withhold payment, can you please let me know what that is?"

(did you itemize the trees in the contract or quote? - if not, ask for no more than half...even if it was a bigger tree. I'd assume you will be more likely to get paid that and it is better than what you have now!)
 
colb said:
If his tires get slashed in a parking lot, he'll wonder if it was the crane guy.

The crane guy could go to his yard and remove a skid steer without setting foot in the yard, for collateral.

The possibilities are endless. Staying in good community with my associates and mitigating bad circumstances is always worth 1k.
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Sounds like paying for protection money, no thanks. I could be wrong but I don't think I've had anyone who would do things like that in my professional orbit, thankfully.

In my mind the crane co should take a loss and do the job for what they quoted. Sounds like op is stuck between 2 shitty people. I wonder how it would all shake out in court, Judge Judy could sort it out.
 
ATH said:
1st mistake: letting the customer tell you how to do the job. Your job is to prune (or was it remove?) the tree without damaging their property. How you accomplish that isn't their job to figure out. Does your contract with the owner specify a crane? If not, tell him you are going to finish the contract that both of you signed and he will be expected to pay the contracted amount - no more, no less.

2nd mistake: no written contract with crane company.

I don't think the customer should owe more for the extra crane cost. He agreed to a price. 1st responsibility for that extra cost should be the crane company. You said they looked at it before quoting you right? That is 100% on whoever looked at it. If the owner, I'd be on his phone 3 times a day until he relents. If somebody else looked at it, tell the owner he can take the money out of that guy's pay, but not yours for misquoting the job.

If all else fails, I agree with @colb that you need to finish the job even if that means hiring another crane and eating the cost. Or...if walking away now means you have a lower loss do that.

Apologize to the customer
*"Sorry I trusted that crane company. I was misinformed that they were reliable and honest - they obviously are neither.
*"I do not want that to reflect on my reputation. I'd love to finish the job for you as quoted. If you will let me rope everything down I will call my insurance agent and have you listed as "additionally insured" for the duration of this project just so that you know you are protected.
*"If you insist that we use another crane, unfortunately that is going to cost a little more (just add enough so you aren't losing money).
*"If you do not want us to do the second tree under either of those circumstances, I understand. I would ask you though if we completed everything as expected for the first tree that you pay in full for that. If there was something unsatisfactory about the first tree that you think it appropriate to withhold payment, can you please let me know what that is?"

(did you itemize the trees in the contract or quote? - if not, ask for no more than half...even if it was a bigger tree. I'd assume you will be more likely to get paid that and it is better than what you have now!)
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Well done sir, well done
 
NEVER let a customer get away with thinking that they get to decide on your tactics. If they know well enough to have any real input, then they can do the cutting themselves.

People tend to be scared of things that they don't understand. You're doing the work because you do understand.

I'm sorry for your circumstance. I hope it works out for you.
 
I don't get some of these answers. Apparently the customer wanted the work done with a crane and weather not it could be done without is irrelevant, they are paying the bill. Since they were offered a price it should remain at what was agreed upon since there were no mitigating circumstances noted in your post. The culprit here in my mind is the crane company and their shoddy business practices that have put you in a bad position. You might try talking to an attorney about using another crane company and suing the crook for the difference in cost if any. I can see where the customer being in the work zone is a liability and I could not allow that. But for some of these responses that say the customer is trying to fleece you or get something for nothing make no sense. I feel the crane company was trying to fleece them but that is just my opinion.
 
The crane company is being bogus. They simply missed the bid.

If the customer is telling me how to do my job, I'll go do it somewhere else every time. Asking me to be careful of the gutters or lawn is not the same as looking at the tree and saying "you better be using a bucket truck" or crane or whatever. That is a big red flag.

Bid yourself right out of their yard. If they want to be that way, you should shrug and clear a week's pay for ever day you'll be there.
 
This is another "teachable moment" as they say. As you know, owning your own business has its pros & cons. Some days are diamonds, some days are rocks.
In the future try to get something in writing regarding scope, equipment, etc.
Your beef is with the crane co & I would have a personal conversation with the owner and try to work out something. Explain to him that they will also lose future income from your word of mouth reference.
Put yourself in the customer's shoes. They had no part in the crane estimate & shouldn't be expected to pay for that bust. I would just finish the job (whatever scope of work you agree to) and know you did the right thing.
 
NailerB said:
I don't get some of these answers. Apparently the customer wanted the work done with a crane and weather not it could be done without is irrelevant, they are paying the bill. Since they were offered a price it should remain at what was agreed upon since there were no mitigating circumstances noted in your post. The culprit here in my mind is the crane company and their shoddy business practices that have put you in a bad position. You might try talking to an attorney about using another crane company and suing the crook for the difference in cost if any. I can see where the customer being in the work zone is a liability and I could not allow that. But for some of these responses that say the customer is trying to fleece you or get something for nothing make no sense. I feel the crane company was trying to fleece them but that is just my opinion.
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I kinda disagree the client has the right to state they want 0 impact, but the company should be the one who makes the call to bring in a crane or not. Sometimes cranes save money, sometimes the job cannot be done without one, and sometimes bringing in a over priced crane is just wasting everyone’s resources. That is why every job isn’t a crane removal.

So if 1,500 for a small crane is a cost effective option for a tree that can be rigged for 2,500. But if the crane company changes their mind and wants $2399 for a larger crane than originally estimated for, its more cost effective to rig the tree. At the end of the day who cares? As long a the yard isn’t rippled, and the tulips aren’t broke and the stump is installed it doesn’t matter.

Would you let a client tell you to use a 1.5” lowering line for a job that 1/2” is over kill just because it makes them feel better? But not want to pay for the climber dragging around a boat anchor?

I do agree though that the client isn’t obligated to pay until the job is done. And if it wasn’t spelled out in the contract they shouldn’t have to pay for the bigger crane. Neither should the tree company if they were given a price, it should fall on the crane company.

We once used a crane where the operator refused to use his smaller unit, and we spent 2.5 hours squeezing and setting up his bigger crane. Turned out that there wasn’t enough room to level the outriggers with the wider foot print. So called the other outfit with a little 90’ stick truck from the lumber yard and the job went smooth and quick, no drama and everything was cut about the size as it would have been regardless due to a small landing. Point is the big crane dude tried to bill us for his 2.5 hours of messing around. We had to bail for the day, and reschedule the job. Cost us a days worth of income, employee payroll, and the extra time to configure a different plan. If any one should be writing a bill it’s one to the crane operator
 
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Seen this happen. Your problem is with the crane co. Me personally my reputation is paramount. I have been in similar situations. I complete the job at the price I contracted to the customer and eat the cost of a bigger crane. This is part of business. I wouldn't even think about it long. You will win in the long run trust me.
 
evo said:
I kinda disagree the client has the right to state they want 0 impact, but the company should be the one who makes the call to bring in a crane or not. Sometimes cranes save money, sometimes the job cannot be done without one, and sometimes bringing in a over priced crane is just wasting everyone’s resources. That is why every job isn’t a crane removal.

So if 1,500 for a small crane is a cost effective option for a tree that can be rigged for 2,500. But if the crane company changes their mind and wants $2399 for a larger crane than originally estimated for, its more cost effective to rig the tree. At the end of the day who cares? As long a the yard isn’t rippled, and the tulips aren’t broke and the stump is installed it doesn’t matter.

Would you let a client tell you to use a 1.5” lowering line for a job that 1/2” is over kill just because it makes them feel better? But not want to pay for the climber dragging around a boat anchor?

I do agree though that the client isn’t obligated to pay until the job is done. And if it wasn’t spelled out in the contract they shouldn’t have to pay for the bigger crane. Neither should the tree company if they were given a price, it should fall on the crane company.

We once used a crane where the operator refused to use his smaller unit, and we spent 2.5 hours squeezing and setting up his bigger crane. Turned out that there wasn’t enough room to level the outriggers with the wider foot print. So called the other outfit with a little 90’ stick truck from the lumber yard and the job went smooth and quick, no drama and everything was cut about the size as it would have been regardless due to a small landing. Point is the big crane dude tried to bill us for his 2.5 hours of messing around. We had to bail for the day, and reschedule the job. Cost us a days worth of income, employee payroll, and the extra time to configure a different plan. If any one should be writing a bill it’s one to the crane operator
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Its the customers property they can make any stipulation they want in regards to how the job is done as long as that's stated in the beginning. Its up to us as the contractor to decided if we want to do the job under those terms. And the crane company is sub contracting to the tree service contractor so that disagreement lands on the tree contractor. we are responsible for anything our employees or subs do on a job site. This customer is in the right here. They had a contract to perform certain work with certain guidelines for a certain amount of money. Simple. If you try and change that agreement without the customer being happy your reputation will suffer. Finally I do agree with what you said about ever tree not being a crane removal and most customers will let you make the decision on how to do the job, but this job sounds different. They wanted it done with a crane and were willing to pay. I would complete the job with the customer and battle the crane company, leave the customer out of it.
 
SomethingWitty said:
NEVER let a customer get away with thinking that they get to decide on your tactics. If they know well enough to have any real input, then they can do the cutting themselves.

People tend to be scared of things that they don't understand. You're doing the work because you do understand.

I'm sorry for your circumstance. I hope it works out for you.
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I agree with your statement in principal, but it seems here the customer discussed tactics in the beginning because they were concerned, that's their right. And if you couldn't convince them that doing the tree manually was safe or no chance of damage and they wanted it done with a crane that's their prerogative. Regardless of what we think. As long as all this was discussed in the beginning. If tactics weren't discussed up front and they stopped you in the middle of doing it manually then wanted you to change tactics that would be different. Sounds like the customer here was reasonable and communicated what they wanted. If they said nothing about tactics then your statement would be correct. People can choose to not listen to expert advice. The customer doesn't get to decide on your tactics, you get to decide if you want the job based on their terms, if not then walk. Its their property and money.
 
ATH said:
1st mistake: letting the customer tell you how to do the job. Your job is to prune (or was it remove?) the tree without damaging their property. How you accomplish that isn't their job to figure out. Does your contract with the owner specify a crane? If not, tell him you are going to finish the contract that both of you signed and he will be expected to pay the contracted amount - no more, no less.

2nd mistake: no written contract with crane company.

I don't think the customer should owe more for the extra crane cost. He agreed to a price. 1st responsibility for that extra cost should be the crane company. You said they looked at it before quoting you right? That is 100% on whoever looked at it. If the owner, I'd be on his phone 3 times a day until he relents. If somebody else looked at it, tell the owner he can take the money out of that guy's pay, but not yours for misquoting the job.

If all else fails, I agree with @colb that you need to finish the job even if that means hiring another crane and eating the cost. Or...if walking away now means you have a lower loss do that.

Apologize to the customer
*"Sorry I trusted that crane company. I was misinformed that they were reliable and honest - they obviously are neither.
*"I do not want that to reflect on my reputation. I'd love to finish the job for you as quoted. If you will let me rope everything down I will call my insurance agent and have you listed as "additionally insured" for the duration of this project just so that you know you are protected.
*"If you insist that we use another crane, unfortunately that is going to cost a little more (just add enough so you aren't losing money).
*"If you do not want us to do the second tree under either of those circumstances, I understand. I would ask you though if we completed everything as expected for the first tree that you pay in full for that. If there was something unsatisfactory about the first tree that you think it appropriate to withhold payment, can you please let me know what that is?"

(did you itemize the trees in the contract or quote? - if not, ask for no more than half...even if it was a bigger tree. I'd assume you will be more likely to get paid that and it is better than what you have now!)
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I agree with 99%. Here is the very small detail that makes all the difference. I don't let a customer tell me how to do a job although If the customer wants it removed with a crane and you can not convince them otherwise that's your moment ( the small detail ) to decide to do the job or not. If you decide to do the job under their terms then the rest we fully agree on. I appreciate all your multi point recommendations its shows good business experience unfortunately our friend here is stuck. Always do what you say, and he said he would use a crane, end of discussion. Be careful of what you commit to, I have learned this the hard way also.
 
Norsetreeman said:
So I recently did a crane job that turned into a customer not happy and not wanting to pay me. So I look at a job the customer doesn't want anything roped down over their house and garage ok no problem I'll use a crane and they agree. I look at job and estimate back price the crane company looks at it and tells me their price and what crane they will be using (42 ton crane). Perfect so I give customer the estimate they hire me almost immediately now comes the day of the job we start on the harder tree over house and garage and it's bigger. Crane companies boss shows up wants to talk I come down he tells me they can't do other tree now without using a bigger crane which is more money, ok but you already gave me a price and I gave my customer a price to coincide with yours. Customer is pissed now an somehow blames me for a misestimate I finished the tree we were on because we can't just leave it half done although now I wish I did. Because customer doesn't wanna pay they said keep the 1100 dollar deposit and we will give you another 400 to cover crane. No no not how this works I'm not doing this tree out of my pocket I also gave them a new price for just the one tree of 3600 original job price was 5400 for both trees. They won't pay keep saying how mad they are but won't pay more money to crane company so they can use bigger crane but also won't just let me rope tree down which I'm capable of doing. Has anyone been in a situation like this it's my first time and I'm pissed because I lost money and busted my ass all day just to get screwed. Do I hold crane company liable I'm not sure that I can because we didn't have a written contract. I will never use them again that's for sure but I need some advice on what I can do to get paid for the work completed, can hold crane co responsible should I write bad reviews anyone who's had a similar experience let me know. If there's anything I forgot in this explanation feel free to ask some questions. Thanks
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You opened with " I recently did a crane job" you mean you did part of a crane job. Not trying to sound harsh, I believe the crane company screwed you. Not the customers fault or problem. Who s name is on the contract? yours. If the customer was nice or understanding they would pay more or pay for the 1st removal and let you walk but they are not obligated. Finish the job. When the sting of the lose wears off your reputation and pride will remain. You will win in the long run.
 
Gorman said:
They have to pay for the first tree if it was itemized.
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I think this is the problem. I thought @Norsetreeman said that he had not broken out the prices of each tree until after the crane company changed their tune about the cost of the cranes. Norsetreeman then worked up a price for the tree he had already started in on, and the customer did not agree that that was a fair price. If the breakout had happened before any work began, with the customer agreeing to a price on the first tree, then all would be well, but that is not what happened. Norsetreeman gave them a new price for the single tree that the customer felt was too high, after the work was nearly or completely finished, as best as I can tell. The desire on the part of a customer to know how much something will cost them before they buy it is the whole reason for giving an estimate for the work in the first place. This customer got his estimate (for the single tree) after the work was done, not before. So I vote that Norsetreeman act like Santa Claus and give the customer a price that the customer thinks is fair. The mess with the crane company is the reason for having written contracts, I guess.

It is all very unfortunate. I hope it works out in the long run, Karma and all of that.

Tim
 
TimBr said:
I think this is the problem. I thought @Norsetreeman said that he had not broken out the prices of each tree until after the crane company changed their tune about the cost of the cranes. Norsetreeman then worked up a price for the tree he had already started in on, and the customer did not agree that that was a fair price. If the breakout had happened before any work began, with the customer agreeing to a price on the first tree, then all would be well, but that is not what happened. Norsetreeman gave them a new price for the single tree that the customer felt was too high, after the work was nearly or completely finished, as best as I can tell. The desire on the part of a customer to know how much something will cost them before they buy it is the whole reason for giving an estimate for the work in the first place. This customer got his estimate (for the single tree) after the work was done, not before. So I vote that Norsetreeman act like Santa Claus and give the customer a price that the customer thinks is fair. The mess with the crane company is the reason for having written contracts, I guess.

It is all very unfortunate. I hope it works out in the long run, Karma and all of that.

Tim
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Tim you are on point. Any talk about the customer scamming or taking advantage is hog wash. Not finishing the job at the contracted price is screwing the customer as the crane company screwed the contractor. I would like to add here, as a tree contractor who does crane removals you should know what size crane can reach what, not leaving it all to the crane company. I assume the 2nd tree was to far. I know my crane capacities and measure each job with a tape. Different crane companies will say different distance and capacity specs , so ask and call around. This all very basic and if your involved with crane removals you should know. I would bet the crane guy or the contractor didn't measure the distance, just looked at it.
 
Yea, I concede here. Just got done myself with a problem but nothing this scale. If you do the extra tree with another crane company it probably won’t be that hard of a hit. You’ll have your costs covered, or at least most of them. In retrospect there could be a lot bigger problems, like that first crane guy trying to make the pick and flipping over.
The extra tree was part of the job so I’d say just do it.
 
Technically an estimate is just that. An estimated price of what a particular job might cost. 99% of my customers call and ask for an estimate. About 2 customers per year want an exact price. That being said I have never once charged more than what was on my written estimate no matter how much longer it took or how much I was going to loose by doing the job. Unless they add more work. He mentioned the job was out of his normal working area. Most times when someone calls from outside my area they have already called everyone else in 5 counties and just want the bottom dollar or are so contrary or unpleasable that no one else will work for them again.
 
Sounds like he had a price in the contract... that is no longer an estimate.

(unless the contract says the price is flexible)
 
Norsetreeman said:
Perfect so I give customer the estimate they hire me almost immediately
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I know what you're saying but some people want an estimate and some want an exact price. The ones that want an estimate may think it's an exact price even though they asked for an estimate. Plumbers and auto mechanics rarely ever stick to their original price but it's expected of us. I do agree with everyone else that one should leave the customer happy. It can cost way more than you would loose on the job by being bad mouthed by one person. Sounds to me like it's the crane ops fault and they should make it right but good luck with that.
 
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