TreeFlex

Re: TreeFlex!

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Those jeans ar fine if the 'chick' is skinny but if not, there is a danger of muffin top syndrome.

Smutty conversation.


So, long back, short leg types will have the force which was usually placed in the back support dissipated into lower spine causing more stress on the back, not less?

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Grover, the 'hot chick' photos are of one woman wearing high riding jeans, the second is one wearing low rider jeans. Those pictures were included in the original email as a clear reference to the point at which the TreeFlex rides in relation to your hips. In fact, my reference photo shows the jeans riding too low for optimum performance of the TreeFlex.

Not a 'smutty' conversation at all. I dont like your references to women's body weight and anatomy and feel they are out of line for this conversation. I would prefer a reasoned disscussion about the TreeFlex saddle minus any further remarks of this nature please.

I will go back and delete any mention of the photos to clean up my original post so you dont become distracted from the point at hand. Thank you for spotting that point.

The TreeFlex saddle and how it would perform for people of varying body types is a question I am not qualified to answer. Hopefully others with experiance in the fields of body mechanics and ergonomics will chime in.

IN my opinion, however, keeping your back ridgid and not letting it move will constrict movement and create weaker muscles in your back. Kind of like staking a tree so it cannot move or flex. The staked tree is much weaker than the tree that is allowed to move and flex as it grows.
Does not matter if your back is long or short, it still must move.
 
Re: TreeFlex!

In our opinion, you are on the right track Frans - simply put, it is the muscles pulling on the bones and counteracting that keep us upright, or allow us to actually do anything. Its bio-mechanics, the same as trees and other forms of life: strength and flexibility are developed to adapt to an environment and purpose.

Without balanced/corrective exercise a poor posture can result. Of course posture can be due to genetics or medical condition, or the common mis-conception that we can be lazy without consequence. Normally, supporting that laziness makes things worse.

This is the main principle behind good ergonomics - using technique AND equipment that enable efficient bio-mechanical exercise. Its not about avoiding work, it is about working fluidly and efficiently.

We are not like a static dummy that has to be supported from a higher anchor point to stop inverting. We are a fluid working system of equal and opposite forces.

Take the muscles from the skeleton and it collapses in a heap on the floor.

TreeFlex has been designed around these principles. For whatever reason, it may not be right for everyone, just like any other harness.
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Re: TreeFlex!

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We are not like a static dummy that has to be supported from a higher anchor point to stop inverting.

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I never said we were, surely a long backed person would be creating more stress on their lower spine by moving the back support down to the pelvic area?

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We are a fluid working system of equal and opposite forces.


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Can you guarantee me 100% that this statement is true?

Bruce Lee said, "be like water" is that what you mean?
 
Re: TreeFlex!

That really is a striking resemblance to Frans' hot chick, Jerseygirl! Only she wasn't naked!
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Bruce Lee perfected the art of what we are talking about Grover - true martial arts experts totally appreciate the holistic concepts and use them to great effect. We cannot guarantee anything though, as we cannot guarantee that you are interpreting what we are trying to explain correctly, plus there are those with rods and pins etc etc. This is not the medium to explain all of this adequately. Seek us out at the trade fair for Dee to discuss what is relavant to yourself.

Its good to see these issues pondered.
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Re: TreeFlex!

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Bruce Lee perfected the art of what we are talking about - true martial arts experts totally appreciate the holistic concepts and use them to great effect.

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Be careful of using Bruce Lee as an example of that philosophy as it is widely known that he used anabolic steroids which may have eventually led to his demise.

Bruce Lee Steroided up in Way of the Dragon

He did move body conditioning to whole new level though.


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We cannot guarantee anything though, as we cannot guarantee that you are interpreting what we are trying to explain correctly,

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I was just confused by your quasi medical statement, I really did not understand what you meant, it just does not seem tangible.

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This is not the medium to explain all of this adequately.

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If you have a good imagination it is probably the best medium as it allows for time to think clearly and respond in a clearly defined way.

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Its good to see these issues pondered.
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Laz, I wear a harness with a large back support and it does allow for some restricted movement of the lower spine. I am starting to think that this restricted movement is important and I am wondering if it's of benefit to have that support there, especially to counteract compression and over twisting of the lower vertibrate.

I see some climbers lifting hand held sections which causes their vertibrate to compress, they will then twist their spine to throw the section into a target area. It looks terrible and even the layman can see it is without doubt bad for the spine.

Even if you tried your hardest to avoid this type of lift, compress and twist motion during your climb you will still encounter this type of movement in the tree regardless of precise work positioning techniques. The nature of treeclimbing and working with saws in the tree is inherently bad for the human body. I understand your need to address this problem.

But, having given it some thought when climbing, I am inclined to believe that a solid back support is important to help support the lower spine. Especially when working with heavy weights/forces on the body with large saws on big takedowns.

Why do weightlifters wear belts round their lower spines and not their pelvic area?

Thanks Laz for your responses

TC
 
Re: TreeFlex!

Hi Grover

So, Bruce was a naughty boy was he? No surprise there with all the pressures such people put themselves under.

I must say, your reasoning about the lower back support is not our accepted reasoning of correct kinesiology of human bio-mechanics. The concept is quite simple; we all have a choice:

1. Use your muscles and skeleton to support and distribute loads properly without dysfunction, encouraging optimum bio-mechanical efficiency. This focuses forces through L3 correctly. TreeFlex is perfectly designed to do this in the work scenario you suggest. Its abdominal and sacral support
centred below L3 help direct force upwards and downwards, like a piston through the spine.

OR

2. Use broad high back support to do it for you. This will load above L3 and compress internal organs such as kidneys. It will prevent the spine from flexing and distributing forces where they should be (L3 - centre of the lumbar curve). A flex reduced spine does not draw synovial fluid as it should, and is at risk of disc failure. This creates flattening of the lumbar curve, and hyper extension of the upper spine and neck(round shoulders and protruding head). This creates pain and dysfunction (MSDs) because the spine isn't being used in the way it is designed (a lot like staking a tree at a weaker taper). This costs money and time to correct, and results in many days off work. Weight lifters belts were designed for 'clean and jerk' of rediculously high 'explosive' forces, beyond what the human body was really designed for. They certainly aren't designed for flexibility or twisting.

A weight lifters belt is designed as a prop for a sport specific situation. Putting that prop into the very dynamic field of tree climbing is incorrect at best. Even pushing logs off a pole, we need to flex the pelvis and power up and down through the spine (lengthening of the spine to distribute force). We also need to flex from side to side to position and lever the saw.

We have designed TFX to be effective in every tree climbing situation, based on our understanding of PPE, kinesiology of human bio-mechanics and the rigours of all aspects of tree climbing work.

We believe our product and its intended use are great solutions to the ergonomic challenges tree climbers face.

You pay your money and take your choice.
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Re: TreeFlex!

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You pay your money and take your choice.

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Can you guarantee that 100%?

Just kidding Laz, great conversation about this harness,
I'm fascinated by the whole Lower back v Pelvic support issue.

Why has no one thought of it before?

I'm going to do some more research on this issue, i'll get back to you.

TC
 
Re: TreeFlex!

It is apparent from views expressed on this site that the Willans T20 harness is a source of derision. Someone once wrote, `God forbid the Willans`. Even my co-workers regularly mock my use of it. And yet I believe, if worn correctly,the Willans is a fine example of an `ergonomic` harness. Please, hear me out.

If the back pad is worn at waist height, as I assume the designers intended it to be worn, the climber will probably experience back trouble. However, if the back pad is worn lower, no higher than the belt-line of your trousers, (the sacrum I think this is) then in my experience you can climb in it 4/5 days a week, 48 weeks a year for 10 years without any MSD problems. Maybe in year 11 you`re a wreck?

It seems to me that the Treeflex is the first harness to intentionally place the back pad much lower down the spine, where it should be. When I retire my Willans I`m going to replace it with the Treeflex for this reason.
 
Re: TreeFlex!

Your reasoning isn't far off the mark Nailer. If you upgrade to a TFX, I'm sure you will benefit in other ways.

I have a T20 harness. I purchased this in 1989, because it looked like the industry was going to have to adopt full body harnesses through force of HSE - I wanted to see how practicable it was going to be.

The minimalist version of a seat harness (butt strap) was the T22. This was designed to ride the pelvis and butt as a low cradle. I used one for a year in 1992/3. It never gave me back problems because of the low design. However, with no padding, it certainly couldn't be tolerated for long from spurs and flipline. The other drawback, is the crushing effect of the hips, and no sliding D (would twist the harness up on branch walks).

I think this design is still so popular because it is comfy when sitting around temporarily, and cradles the pelvis.

TFX distributes the load better for flipline work through the shape, sacrum pad and lining. The independent floating leg loops and sliding bridge, prevent twist up and allow greater freedom of movement. This all prevents damage to the hip joints and back. It also comes Frog/RAD ascent prepared, for more ergonomic benefits. Some have noted the blue attachment gives a perfect footlocking anchor, though we do not advocate footlocking as a bio-mechanically efficient technique.

If your are coming to the AA trade fair, be sure to look us up and get a talk through the design. I look forward to it : )
 
Re: TreeFlex!

Sorry Lazarus, it is a T22 that I have, not the full chest harness - I`d never get one of them.

I take your points about the other benefits of the Treeflex. My T22 has padding but no sliding bridge. I find it very comfortable, but maybe it is such a bad harness that I`ve subconsciously developed a climbing style that suits it. I cannot picture myself actually sitting in the seat and working. I would more often be leaning into it, with my feet taking a good proportion of the weight, either branch walking or spar blocking.

The important distinction, however, as I see it, is the height of the back pad. If a harness is made to support your back at waist height, to me that just seems counter-productive. The support should be lower down, on the sacrum, where your body will actually be pivoting, as with your Treeflex. Anyway, you obviously know a lot more about this. I just wanted to voice my take on it as one end-user.

I shall be at the AA trade show. I had intended to get a Teeflex there.
 
Re: TreeFlex!

Looking forward to seeing all those interested in arborist ergonomics at the AA trade fair this weekend.

Davina will be on hand with complex anatomy 3D computer graphics to help get the message across. Don't miss out on an opportunity.

Also, I have tips for SRT and TreeFlex use.

See you there!
 
Re: TreeFlex!

Laz, just tell us you'll be doing a similar presentation at the ISA, for those of us who don't live across the pond. I've been working a lot this summer, saving and hoping that the TFX will be available to try out at the conference.

jp
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Re: TreeFlex!

I'll ditto the above post. It would be really great if there was the opportunity to try on a TreeFlex at the ISA conference.
 
Re: TreeFlex!

Hi JP & Leon

I won't be in hawaii I'm afraid, but TreeFlex possibly might.


Thanks for your continued interest!
Watch this space.

P.
 
Re: TreeFlex!

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but TreeFlex possibly might.




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well theres your opportunity paolo.....im sure one of these young hawaiian lads would be more than happy to walk around wearing your treeflex harness and advertizing for you in exchange for a small price....ie, your harness
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