Re: TreeFlex!
Here is a really really long response to your/my questions about the TreeFlex
I hope it answers your concern.
But I will say that the B'fly does not have an adjustable leg strap height. Only the rear elastic straps which raise or lower the back of the leg straps. the TreeFlex has a unique strap system for adjusting just where the leg straps sit on your upper leg. Ball Cruncher? No.
Here ya go!
TreeFlex
-a review-
Frans Smith
&
-a response by co-designer-
Paolo Bavaresco
FS: I have compared this saddle to the Butterfly 1 as the B’fly1 appears to bear a close resemblance to the TF saddle.
PB: Yes, its been said before, and I appreciate the point of view. If Butterfly wearers adopt the TFX, we certainly won’t be complaining : )
However, TFX is designed to stay low, and free the waist, without pressing on hips and key nerve lines.
FS: The TF is a lightweight arborist saddle that incorporates an adjustable buckle system for the primary waist attachment/waist adjustment. The TF is a ‘step through’ type saddle as compared to the type of saddle that you buckle onto your waist the same way you would put a belt onto your pants or a construction workers tool belt.
PB: We feel this design best allows a low attachment, and both a fixed and sliding attachment. It allows centralizing of the fixed waist tie in, and routes the waist risers so as not to ride easily up into the ribs. The way the webbing routes through the buckles is key to this function, and is a patented feature. The black tabs prevent unintentional loosening .
FS: The primary waist size adjustment is adjustable in two different ways. Two adjustable buckles make the belt size adjustment, one on each side of the hips. So the user loosens both buckles, enlarges the waist strap, pulls on the saddle and then tightens each buckle until the blue SLA attachment point is centered with the center of your body (belly button).
PB: The blue attachment point should be only a couple of inches (5cm) below the navel.
FS: I was prepared to purchase this saddle sight unseen because of the clean simple appearance of it. However, once I began to really read Paolo’s description of the reasoning behind the TF’s construction, I decided to hold off my purchase until others had tried it out.
PB: Yes, it is a new, internationally patented & registered design concept. But it still works conventionally if worn too high.
FS: The reason for this was, in Paolo’s writings, he continually referred to the saddle adjustment and design as being unique. Unique in the sense that the TF has incorporated ergonomically guided construction features and because of this, requires specific sizing and fitting requirements.
PB: Yes, to gain the intended ergonomic benefits, the correct size of TreeFlex must be worn just below the waist. This is not the same concept as current designs of broad support designed to fit the waist and lumbar area..
FS: For example: Paolo writes that for climbers who do not have a well developed core structure, that climber may have to build up that strength in order to fully realize the benefits of this saddle.
PB: I was trying to explain that climbers look for support to their waist too much, which creates poor (lazy) core structure. If a climber wants a saddle to support them like a high backed chair, their core structure and flexibility will suffer. To continue the analogy, Treeflex is designed to encourage good posture, like a high stool with no foot support or bar to lean on : ) Or like riding a horse properly, instead of like a sack of potatoes (although I believe it is far more comfy than either of those practices : )
FS: What Paolo was referring to is where the saddle ‘rides’ on the hips. Most saddles fit snugly ON THE LOWER BACK. While the TF is designed to ride OVER THE HIP BONES. (See photo of low rider jeans)
PB: Yes, I appreciate this style of jean as much as the next person. However, TFX should not be worn as low as these jeans. The blue attachment point should sit just about 2inches (5cm) below the navel, where a normal pair of jeans sit.
FS: This simple adjustment requirement has created confusion in not only myself, but in Tom Dunlop as well. In one of Tom’s pictures he posted on TreeBuzz, the saddle was riding over the lower back, not on the hipbones. (See photo of hot chick w/highwaisted pants)
PB: Yes, this style is typical of where most harnesses are designed to be worn, but not TFX. However, it will still allow more freedom and flex than other harnesses if it should be worn here, but it may pull up in to the groin a little too much.
FS: I tried the saddle both ways. When I slipped the saddle on and cinched it so the back pad was on my lower back, the saddle did not differ much in fit or feel than the B’fly 1.
PB: I rest my case : )
FS: When I re-adjusted the saddle to fit over my hipbones, I noticed a difference. The pad, which sticks out of the back pad, was now centered on my lower back just above my butt crack.
PB: Bravo! This area is called the ‘sacrum’. Davina shaped the pad to mirror this small area of fused bones (no flexibility issues), and used a certain thickness of pad to fill the small hollow there. This pad is what helps distribute the pressure of the belt onto the sacrum, away from nerve lines. The pad also prevents the harness being dragged off of the pelvis, as it wedges above the ‘glutimus maximus’ muscles (backside).
FS: The difference I noticed was that when flipped in with my lanyard, the side D rings did not pinch so much and I felt very comfortable.
PB: “I felt very comfortable” – I like the sound of that : ) Yes, there is nothing to pinch here – the belt runs below the bone of the iliac crest (upper rim of pelvis) and above the hip joint. It sits on muscle. The pad is designed to ‘Flex’ (its all in the name you know : ) and mirror the muscle movement as much as possible, whilst totally freeing up the full length of spinal components (muscles, tendons, ligaments and bones) and the hip joints.
FS: Also, I was able to bend my waist side to side with a much greater range of motion (because the belt did not constrict my waist).
PB: We are very happy to hear this! This is the intended effect. The most you should notice about TFX, is that you don’t notice it – it sits in a zone of no restriction. A few weeks of this, and the benefits will be felt in lack of stiffness in the spinal and hip components.
FS: Usually being the fat kind of guy I am (compared to the TCIAA competitors), I get short of breath when bending sideways at extreme angles. I find I bend my body a lot when pruning. So this lower fitting saddle helped with that.
PB: Yes, the design of TFX helps prevent it from riding up and restricting breathing, and compression of internal organs. We do not claim TreeFlex will invest climbers with magical powers - not noticing any pain is a good start, eventually leading to improved spinal flexibility and stability. I preferred to work in the prototype for 6 months without proper gear loops, rather than go back to my old style harness. But then I appreciate the importance of TreeFlex’s ergonomic benefits in helping to avoid MSDs (muscular-skeletal dysfunction).
FS: During my testing of this saddle I used the time to wear it on a parking lot tree-pruning job. The trees were Modesto Ash trees and the crowns were splayed apart with little or no interior growth but with very heavy tips. So the primary job I was contracted to do was to reduce end-weight on these branches. As the overhead tie-ins were minimal, I had to really exert my self with limb walking with a low tie-in.
SO, to make a long story longer, ? I had to really bend my body.
The TF was nice; it made a difference in my breathing throughout the day.
I had to adjust the leg straps once or twice, which had slipped a bit, also I had to adjust the bridge/leg strap/lower ring straps to bring the height of the leg straps a bit higher. I guess Tom D. had them set lower.
This pruning job took one week so I got plenty of time going up and down these trees and working with the saddle.
PB: I’m happy about that – unrestricted breathing is very important to safety, strength, comfort, well being and ultimately, productivity. Those types of trees are a real test of positioning and pain threshold – I hope you put in a good price!
FS: I was somewhat surprised that the two main belt adjustment buckles make the saddle easier than I thought it would be to get the saddle on and off as I helped my crew chip brush and sweep and blow off each working site between prunings.
The main adjustment buckles hardly slipped at all when working. However ALL these types of buckles slip as the webbing becomes more worn in and flexible. That is a fact of life, not just my own opinion.
So I usually put a couple of stitches in strategic places to hold the webbing in place. Unfortunately, I have not yet figured out how to do this on the main belt, as I need to use them to get the saddle on and off.
PB: Ah! I think that maybe some of the harnesses you have tried in the sates are not constructed as well as TFX. Our buckles have been found not to slip. The friction buckles are inherent to the design. In fact, most industrial harnesses in europe have had this design for some years. For example, all of ‘Petzl’s’ industrial and sport harnesses carry this design. They don’t inherently slip. They allow finite adjustment, don't come undone by mistakes, and allow a design that has no buckle to dig in to the abdomen or catch the bridge.
Cresto webbing and stitching is incredibly durable. Their reputation is built on it. If you've got an abrasive industrial job (tree workers don't know the meaning of the word by comparison - think rubbing concrete versus bark) and workers that are hard on gear, a Cresto harness is a safe bet. This was one reason why we chose
them. The buckles are good quality - the same as other quality harnesses use
(Austria-Alpin). This style of buckle loosens by oscillation, not by wear of
good quality webbing. This is solved by Cresto by the use of the black
webbing tabs; they prevent the buckles oscillating apart far enough to
inadvertantly loosen, AND increase friction on the webbing. The result is;
they don't slip. This is obvious, as its not too easy to get out of the
harness without knowing where to pull! We could extend the black tab as a
release method. I think the impression of slipping comes when tossing the
harness around in the truck - the two parts of the buckle separate without
load on them, and come loose, so need to be checked. The waist belt must be loosened fully to step through before tightening anyway, and doesn’t release until the climber deliberately causes it to.
FS: The excessive straps on the main belt are, as I suspected, somewhat in the way while working. I tried several ways in which to fold them onto themselves and through the elastic holders. This worked o.k. but I wonder just how the system will hold up on a saddle that has been used for awhile. The little elastic bands usually get worn out very quickly.
As it is, the excessive webbing is right in the most busy place of the saddle, right where my primary attachment points are, like on the bridge or the SLA attachment point.
I have found the techniques shown here to be the most effective : )
http://www.treemettlenexus.com/treeflex.html#images
FS: I prefer a locking buckle that I can ‘click’ in and out such as is on the B’fly1, or is on the leg straps on the TF.
The B’fly1 has a much trimmer buckle than the TF so it might be a buckle that would not impede the ergonomic design of the TF as the TF saddle rides lower.
Also the friction buckles have a bit of black webbing sewn on to them (tabs). This helps the user to grab them and release the tension on the waist strap. This bit of webbing could be slightly longer as most climbers have gloves on or, like me, stiff fingers from working all my life.
PB: A quick release feature was ruled out in all practicality, because of the design. The friction buckles are inherent to the patent, and are what help keep the harness away from the ribs. Our reasoning was a sliding bridge harness is inherently step through anyway, so a quick release waist strap makes for no real advantage. As you have noted, it is very simple and effective to loosen and tighten the waist belt when stepping in and out.
FS: The extruded foam ‘nubbins’ are very neat. The back pad and the leg straps both have this. The ‘nubbins’ are covered with a mesh fabric to give the surface less to grab and tear at sharp objects.
This mesh fabric may, or may not, be that durable. I can picture the fabric tearing on something either in the truck or on a branch stub. Might be hard to effect an ‘in the field’ repair. So I wonder just how resistant to tearing the ‘nubbins’ are with holes in this protective fabric.
The fabric is seamless so it won’t unravel, but the holes might be hard to repair.
It would be great to have this inner surface replaceable by the user as the extruded foam has a lot to do with the comfort of the saddle.
PB: This foam and liner is used to line professional sports clothing. It is closed cell foam and is superb at absorbing impact (a consideration in an uncontrolled swing, as the pad protects the pelvis), breathing and moving with the body. If the lining should tear, it cannot fall out, as each ‘nubbin’ is extruded from a one piece sheet of closed cell foam. An effective repair in the field would be tape or stitch the lining back together. The outer pad is also extruded closed cell foam. This stuff is bomb proof and insulates against heat and cold – just take a look at a mountaineers sleeping pad – the state of them makes you wonder how it stays together for so many years! There is a raised pad centre back for stabilizing the harness above the buttocks, and raised padding on the leg loops to help distribute weight.
FS: The nubbins allow air to circulate which is a great feature.
PB: Glad you feel the same way : )
FS: My great complaint about another saddle, the TreeMagic 1, is that it was not durable. But it is a lightweight well fitting saddle otherwise.
On the TF, the back pad seems to be sewn onto a harder ‘nybuck’ (hard nylon) surface. So it seems to be more durable than the TreeMagic1.
I cannot tell if the extruded foam back pad is well secured but that is not a high wear surface so it may not matter.
PB: I think I just covered this – there is no comparison between the materials and manufacture process.
FS: Also the Accessories rings are well placed, but I would prefer to have some additional sewn in.
The main waist strap is a ‘floating belt’. By which I mean that it is not sewn all the way around continuously to the back pad. I really like this feature as it provides an easy way to add different rings or gear loops.
PB: Yes, there is no need to stitch the pad excessively to the pad, the belt and pad follow a natural line on top of the other, so only need holding in place on the back and hips. The weight of equipment hangs off the main belt (as strong as it gets), so there is no excessive force trying to separate the two. This then allows accessories to be attached where preferred.
FS: The accessory rings and the straps are sewn between the main belt strap and the inner pad.
PB: The accessory rings and loops are stitched with mega thread to the webbing strap. They are very strong. This is the same design as other Cresto harnesses that haven’t been found to have a problem.
FS: This was a major weakness of the TreeMagic1 as these straps would pull out with about 25 lbs. of force.
PB: I don’t feel as there is a comparison here – the gear loops are similar construction to other Cresto harnesses, and they haven’t received complaints.
FS: I like the vertical gear loops on the back, nice feature. However with a Blood stopper first aid kit inserted in it’s spot, the vertical gear loops are harder to access as is the horizontal gear loop directly below it.
I like vertical gear loops placed just a bit farther apart.
PB: The verticals are placed there to keep weight close to the spine without sliding from side to side whilst climbing. They are easier to clip because the wrist doesn’t have to be twisted when actioning triple action gates on karabiners. The first aid kit can be slotted easier to hand closer to the hip. This frees up the centre line for an ice clipper to hang the chainsaw. Its better to hang heavier gear this way. I use ice clippers just behind each hip to keep lighter, regularly used gear like micro-pulleys and slings. The verticals at back can take a rigging rope or pulley when repositioning, or rope bag. The rings on the leg loops are handy for a throwline pouch when installing lines in trees in the canopy, or ditty bags, or small krabs to clip the rope away from spikes (yes I know, or tobacco pouch or powder puff…) The large loops under the hip Ds are handy for quickly clipping pulleys etc when rigging (never a good idea to drop those), instead of fumbling round the back. The small ring here also for the handsaw. The centre back horizontal loop can be fitted with a chainsaw ring strap (such as those made by Weaver). This makes it easier to attach the chainsaw, and gives the extra length required to standard saw strops designed to be used from the hip.
FS: ‘D’ rings: While the size of D rings is really a personal preference, I have found that the D rings on the TF flop back and forth too easily. I like small D rings, which will stay put forward or backward. Tom D. likes to tie a friction hitch to his D rings, which means he needs a larger D ring to do this with. But I like to attach my lanyard to my saddle using a removable bit of hardware (long locking clevis). I use Hubis lanyard adjusters or small Gibbs, and I also like to take my lanyards off and on my saddle as I have many different lengths, which get used frequently.
ALSO, larger D rings get in the way of me pruning with a handsaw. I keep my elbows naturally close to my body and with the larger D rings I hit my ‘funny’ bone. Not so funny after a few years of doing it.
So the D rings could be done differently.
PB: The rings are a flat design that don’t pinch, and therefore work well. They are the best compromise size, with a slim profile. The flip back feature is nice for those that prefer to use both ends of the rope from the centre Ds (or lanyard from centre). They could be stitched tighter in manufacture to make it so they flip back only with more pressure.
FS: Leg Straps: The nylon elastic straps could be a bit beefier. Also, for replacement, if the leg strap were not sewn through the leg pad right at the point of attachment for the elastic adjustment strap, that adjustment strap would be easier to replace.
The elastic is about as beefy as it gets! I already had that changed up : )
FS: Over all, my impressions are:
1. Construction seems good. Fairly durable. Does not have the durability of an old school leather Weaver for example, but seems fairly strong for one of the newer lightweight saddles.
PB: Well, if you’ re going to compare us to leather…. : ) Time will tell, but I think it is a very durable saddle, because of the simple design, quality materials and construction.
2. Waist strap buckle system not very secure. Would prefer a more positive way to quickly ‘snap’ the waist onto my body. These friction buckles and the webbing all do slip over time (as the webbing ages and softens); so this feature could be worked on to improve it.
PB: Treeflex adjustment has shown itself to work positively without slippage. This design is inherent to the design concept, and part of the patented design feature that prevents the harness riding up into the ribs.
3. Leg straps/ waist strap/bridge, and there adjustment, are very important. If not adjusted right, the saddle will not feel that much different from say, a B’fly. When these adjustments are made, the saddle fits much better and does seem to be significantly better than other saddles.
Waist adjustment is very important. This saddle will feel much better on your body if adjusted correctly. If not adjusted correctly, the saddle will feel much like any other advanced lightweight climbing saddle.
(repeating myself here)
PB: That’s great news! A comfortable typical saddle if used conventionally, a stealthy ergonomic aid to MSD avoidance if worn correctly. What more could we ask for??? The saddle still doesn’t restrict the lower back as much if worn too high, because of the cut away design.
4. The blue SLA attachment point is a nice feature, it works well. It is well set to allow my body to pivet nicely when footlocking.
PB: This has been said before – a nice footlocking anchor. Try it with a chest ascender and you’ll realise the low position is as good as a caving harness. Which was the design intent. It also allows a slop free attachment for pole work, and a maillon can be attached for more space for karabiners.
5. Could be a few more small ring attachment points on the back and side of the saddle. Not too critical though.
PB: We shall bear this in mind.
6. Better D rings that do not flip back and forth so easily. I personally like the feature of having the choice of flipping the D ring to the rear, but I don’t like having the D rings flop back and forth. I also like smaller D rings because of my cronic elbow pain from hitting my funny bone on it (the D ring).
PB: Easily fixed – just has to be stitched tighter : )
7. Price of saddle: With the advent of the TreeMotion, and it’s higher price point, the Treeflex might be hard pressed to achieve a market share here in the States. The reason for this is, when the shipping costs are figured, plus the cost of the saddle, the final price will be close to the TreeMotion. The TM has piggybacked onto the Sherrill reputation and thus has garnered acceptance and sales from that despite the high cost. Even tho the TreeMotion has yet to be proven in durability.
PB: We have a plan for each market that avoids unnecessary import costs. We want TreeFlex to be competitive in each market. We appreciate that the ergonomic message is mis-understood at best (its NOT about avoiding work) is of such importance it cannot be stressed enough when helping to avoid MSDs. It appears we have produced a harness that will perform with technical credibility and durability, and these features will sell themselves. The huge plus, is that it will keep your body more in tune with the way it is designed to work, and prevent MSDs. Its almost as if climbers are getting the ergonomic benefits for free.
FS: The TF is so far on it’s own, so has a harder uphill battle.
I do believe that it beats the Kolibri, the TreeAustria and the B’fly because of it’s fit.
However, all the saddles named have a certain market niche, but have sunken to a certain level of sales and have not moved from that level over time. This is because each saddle has certain (but different) shortcomings.
In my opinion,
In order for the TF to garner a healthy share of the market, it appears to me that their should be a few fundamental differences such as:
Innovative fit- (already accomplished with it’s ergonomic based design)
Durability- This saddle could be a serious contender to the B’fly and the TM if it beats both in these critical areas. This one single feature (durability) would, in my opinion, make a huge difference in sales.
PB: We think it is very durable.
FS: Ease of taking off and on, and very important, steadfastness of the buckle and strap system. Right now, the TF is on par with the other saddles in that the buckle system so is not any better (or worse) then them.
The holding of straps with the friction buckles is an industry wide problem. I have read and heard of many many reports of buckles ‘creeping’ and getting loose over time.
If this one single issue were addressed effectively, the TF would be a hell of a saddle.
PB: Well, we don’t think there are any issues with buckles – many makes of industrial harness have had this design for years without issue. It appears that in the states there are some harnesses with this style that aren’t well thought out.
FS: I am not disparaging the ergonomic advantages of the TF, but I am attempting to deliver to you what I perceive as a major problem with today’s performance climbing saddles.
The fit of the TF is so critical. In fact the entire saddle’s great advantages is predicated on how it fits to your body. So if the buckles creep open over time, the saddle will not fit correctly. Thus regulating the TF to a reputation of just another saddle.
PB: No point in repeating myself here – I hope our attempt at friction buckle design isn’t tarred with the same brush as products that didn’t get it right.
I cannot stress this issue enough.
Paolo & Tom,
Thank you for allowing me to try out the saddle. It has been fun. I sincerely hope my thoughts have been constructive and of some use to you.
Please keep in mind that I am one voice among many. My thoughts are based on my climbing experience and I am not by any means a professional ‘reviewer’. I am also aware that personal climbing gear is just that, personal. No one manufacturer could possibly create a saddle that would fit perfectly for each and every climber with all the perfect gear loops and whatnot on it. The idea and hope of this one particular saddle is unique. I applaud your efforts and hope that it truly makes a difference.
Your voice harks of the experience of many frans. It has added great value to the project.
Thank you kindly for being so objective, and actually purchasing a ‘TreeFlex’. If
the product isn’t sold, it will never be improved upon, and its potential lost. I
especially thank you for you contribution in that respect.
Kind regards
Paolo.
