"Tree Experts" and "Tree Preservation" companies; misnamed and misleading.

[Naturalway]

A human life is a bit different from a landscape tree.

What about a pet's life? The courts have defined the value of the dog or cat as their market value and that may include vet bills if the loss was due to an injury by another party. So a pet's life according to past awards ranges commonly between $200 and $1500. I've seen awards for trees much higher than that. So according to past awards from the courts the replacement value of a tree IS often much more than a pet. I'll retract my doctor analogy and stick with the veterinarian analogy.

 

[Leroy]

So you're saying it is your "duty" to spray toxic chemicals on landscape plants? My duty is to be realistic and be a righteous citizen of Earth. You may know that I have an "extreme" view towards IPM. I really could care less if you guys want to go around spraying, injecting, and soaking. The proliferation of toxic chemicals is inevitable at this point. I just don't want the blood on my hands, and the effects will likely not be seen for a very long time, though they do find an extraordinary amount of hermaphroditic Trout in Boulder Creek.

 

[Leroy]

What a court says has no bearing on my own valuation of anything.

The IPM thing is totally bass ackwards. It's all about money come on!!

If someone just came out and admitted they can't make enough dollars trimming and doing RCX so they need to slang chemi's I would somewhat respect that.

 

[guymayor]

Levi, I agree that the need for chemical use is totally oversold. See the recent US IPM standard--written by the company made famous by the big bee kill in Oregon. I don't think anybody else even looked at it before it was passed.

But I don't think Naturalway "slangs" anything, and I KNOW there is a place for responsible use of chemical treatments, in an ecosystem context.

 

[Naturalway]

So you're saying it is your "duty" to spray toxic chemicals on landscape plants? My duty is to be realistic and be a righteous citizen of Earth. You may know that I have an "extreme" view towards IPM. I really could care less if you guys want to go around spraying, injecting, and soaking. The proliferation of toxic chemicals is inevitable at this point. I just don't want the blood on my hands, and the effects will likely not be seen for a very long time, though they do find an extraordinary amount of hermaphroditic Trout in Boulder Creek.

I agree to an extent but that needs to be balanced with environmental and health benefits of having trees. Studies have shown significantly higher rates of heart disease in areas where EAB decimated the landscape. People recover faster in rooms with a landscape view. Studies abound. Climate change may be mitigated by more trees. It goes on and on. But yes, are the costs worth it?

When I got into this industry we were wearing Tyvek suits, huge respirators, spraying crazing high concentration of things like Dursban, big foggers mounted on semi trucks, and killing everything. I think the EPA has done a decent job, not great though. The industry has changed significantly in the last 30 years and I hope it continues. If you look at pesticide sales, ornamental sales are a drop in the bucket compared to agriculture. And then you can look at the environmental damage created by big Ag like feedlots (they actually feed cattle and hogs Arsenic so they eat twice as much as they normally would). I think the industry is doing a better job, our company promotes a strong nutrient program, we don't call it a fertilizer cause its not. Our general sprays are "inspect and treat", sometimes we don't see a need to spray or spray a few gallons but we still charge for the visit.

Regarding toxicity. A few years ago a man died at the NY marathon cause he drank too much water. A teen recently died from an internet challenge when he drank two gallons of Gatorade. Look at the LD50 of salt. Should we put warning/caution/danger labels on these? Everything is toxic given a certain dose and exposure. We should be more concerned with environmental persistence than toxicity and what pathways degradation occurs and within what time frames.

 

[Leroy]

But I don't think Naturalway "slangs" anything, and I KNOW there is a place for responsible use of chemical treatments, in an ecosystem context.

Well I will have to differ to you on the "responsible use" as I am no expert, only observing and commenting on the things I see in my life. And I am not accusing Naturalway of anything.

Regarding toxicity. A few years ago a man died at the NY marathon cause he drank too much water. A teen recently died from an internet challenge when he drank two gallons of Gatorade. Look at the LD50 of salt. Should we put warning/caution/danger labels on these? Everything is toxic given a certain dose and exposure. We should be more concerned with environmental persistence than toxicity and what pathways degradation occurs and within what time frames

Very true. The marathon guy is no surprise, especially if it was NYC tap water!!! And yes I think that there should be warning labels on Gatorade or, just not have it.

Here is something I consider, If I had to guess 80% to 90% of the trees in my town are not native species. What is the cost to the environment, both local and global, of caring for these trees? Not just the chemicals. How much fuel do we burn driving around cutting, chipping these trees that don't even belong here? How about water? We live in a sub-alpine desert...

I don't know, it makes my head spin. 99% or more of the humans here are not native so... It seems we are very far from a natural way. I believe that since we are here now we should figure out the most responsible way to live here and tread lightly with every step.

 

[Leroy]

People recover faster in rooms with a landscape view.

Here is the view from our room at Foothills Hospital in Boulder. We are here with our newborn son welcoming him to the world. I love this place so much, it tears me up the see it get torn up, but they can't tear up the mountains!!

If you ever come to Boulder or Longmont give me a call if you want to meet. (720) 988 8393

 

[Naturalway]

Well I will have to differ to you on the "responsible use" as I am no expert, only observing and commenting on the things I see in my life. And I am not accusing Naturalway of anything.


Very true. The marathon guy is no surprise, especially if it was NYC tap water!!! And yes I think that there should be warning labels on Gatorade or, just not have it.

Here is something I consider, If I had to guess 80% to 90% of the trees in my town are not native species. What is the cost to the environment, both local and global, of caring for these trees? Not just the chemicals. How much fuel do we burn driving around cutting, chipping these trees that don't even belong here? How about water? We live in a sub-alpine desert...

I don't know, it makes my head spin. 99% or more of the humans here are not native so... It seems we are very far from a natural way. I believe that since we are here now we should figure out the most responsible way to live here and tread lightly with every step.

First, Congratulations on the birth of your son.

The positive impacts of trees in our high plains grasslands has resulted in lower summer temperatures, increased humidity, higher winter temperatures, reduced wind, reduced heating and cooling costs, greater quality of life, increased real estate values, reduction of air and particulate pollution, wildlife habitat, reduction in storm water runoff, and a myriad of other benefits. Our communities have valued these over the costs and that is why the trees are here.

The bottom line is the human race is the most prolific, most environmental damaging species the planet has ever known. Where do we fit in that equation? It's a very relevant and thought provoking question to ask. I worry about what kind of earth my children will live in as well.

All I know is we try as a small company to change things, to educate clients, the research our methods and products, and discuss issues at conferences, at the bar, and on forums like this.

 

[Raby Woodsman]

Treebuzz trial by fire. Those who offer strong opinions at first posting and encounter strong opinions in opposition to their own, do not last long. I have a theory that they drift over to the treehouse where people are 'nicer'

Your assumptions were incorrect. I was busy doing real work, out in the real world; setting up my business based on ideals that it seems people think are not sustainable. Just you wait and see.........(wink)

 

[Raby Woodsman]

If there should be no chemical controls ever what would you propose to do about some of the new exotic pests and diseases that have very real implications to tree health and safety? For instance, dutch elm disease. Should we just let all of these trees die when we have effective treatments for this disease? Is there no environmental, social, or economic benefit to keeping large mature trees alive using proper plant health care?

I presume you work for a company where IPM and PHC is the core of your business and that there are throwbacks from the agro-chem companies that produce these chemicals, just like pharmaceutical sales people give physicians cash incentives to prescribe unnecessary medications?

 

[Raby Woodsman]

Raby yes talk to Roger. 10 years is not that long in the biz, no offense. Starting your own gig with wild ideals is not sustainable--been there!

I totally agree that chemicals are oversold by the big companies. I once pulled 37 pounds of fungal conk off a shingle oak. The Big Green rep had looked at the tree (and the conks) earlier, and the first word out of his mouth was "Fert!"
Big Yellow is worse in this regard ime, yet they tout themselves not only as 'experts', but 'scientific', too...
As for 'experts', the most oxymoronic example is Big Orange. Some crews do good work, others mutilate trees for no easy $.

Agreed. The two big players are too cozy with their agro-chem buddies to trust them to be objective when selling work to customers. I know their business models and they are as corrupt and unethical as they come. Thankfully, their days are numbered.

 

[Raby Woodsman]

Well hello sir! Do take Rodgers advise and give him a ring. There are some really good company and some very bad ones in our area. Feel free to give me a shout too, I however don't have all the connections Rodger has and only a fraction of his experience.

Thanks for the suggestion but no thanks. I do not respect anyone who thinks STP and its founder is to be respected. Maybe in the 80's. But then again, many things were considered right and proper in the 80's but would not even be legal now.

 

[Raby Woodsman]

May as well just say the company names... big yellow is??

Bartlett aka Scientifically Researched and Proven Over-Use of Life Harming Chemical Poison Corp EXPERTS Inc.

Big Green is Davey Tree also aka Scientifically Researched and Proven Over-Use of Life Harming Chemical Poison Corp EXPERTS Inc yet not just as technically open-minded when it comes to climbing and equipment as Big Yellow but have cool looking cars that make it seem as though they care about the environment but quite literally do not give a rat's ass.

Big Orange is Asplundh aka Experts in keeping branches from touching wires. There is knowledge and skill required in doing this but it has nothing to do with tree care. It has to do with not electrocuting yourself or other people. I have more respect for these tree trimmers for surviving everyday than any of the Big Green or Big Yellow earth killers.

 

[JD3000]

If there should be no chemical controls ever what would you propose to do about some of the new exotic pests and diseases that have very real implications to tree health and safety? For instance, dutch elm disease. Should we just let all of these trees die when we have effective treatments for this disease? Is there no environmental, social, or economic benefit to keeping large mature trees alive using proper plant health care?

EAB, ALB, Hemlock adelgid, Oak wilt, Sudden Oak Death, the list goes on of potentially catastrophic tree and ecosystem loss. I live in central Ohio and EAB has been devastating.
Some of us PHC guys are quite knowledgeable AND responsible. To use such blanket statements about PHC is what's irresponsible and largely unprofessional.

If there should be no chemical controls ever what would you propose to do about some of the new exotic pests and diseases that have very real implications to tree health and safety? For instance, dutch elm disease. Should we just let all of these trees die when we have effective treatments for this disease? Is there no environmental, social, or economic benefit to keeping large mature trees alive using proper plant health care?

 

[guymayor]

10 years is not long enough to support all those absolute judgments. Maybe the idealism could be tempered with some humility.

 

[JontreeHI]

Your assumptions were incorrect. I was busy doing real work, out in the real world; setting up my business based on ideals that it seems people think are not sustainable. Just you wait and see.........(wink)

Glad to be wrong, nice to see you again sir

 

[JD3000]

?

Put up a parking lot

 

[AW4130]

Guy, I understand what you are saying and agree that 'reduction pruning' can often be a fair recommendation instead of removal if the situation allows for it (many factors involved here). The problem here on the West Coast is the amount of property owners that have great views of mountains, lakes and other water ways into which their trees often grow. I have personally experienced the property owner asking for their trees to be topped (not reduced; blatantly cut at the level of the horizon without regard to the future health of the tree) so that their view is returned to them. The reason for doing it was purely financial on the tree company's part; yet another customer on their books. As supposed 'tree experts' who are all over the North American tree care scene, sponsoring events and trade shows and publications etc etc, this should not be their practice. In this regard, I understand Plant Amnesty's frustration and have seen far too much bad tree work by the supposed industry leaders to think there must be something better than this.

My company has already been created and my passion for changing the status quo is such that I hope that one tree at a time, I will help shape the public's perception of what is right and proper, so that the companies that do bad work will no longer be able to pretend to know what they are talking about, and will have to find another industry to ruin.

I and my little bitty operation are are 100% with you friend. I like your words. Compromise is the reason our whole world is fucked up. Because people have been willing for one reason or another for a very very long time to bend integrity for the will of others. If everyone in especially the blue collar world could realize the simple truth of this and that we really could change it... Wow. Can you imagine?

 

[AW4130]

I think I understand fairly well where this guy is coming from. Especially on the view stuff. I try to stay away from that shit. View work is bullshit in my opinion. If you want to live in the mountains, live in the mountains. Live with the trees. As they are. Appreciate the view that is given. Naturally. If you have hazards, sure mitigate them. But if you are just some rich prick who wants a better view I say get bent. If you have the millions for the home on that mountain, you should have the few bucks to put in the tank of your Benz or whatever to take a little drive and enjoy a very big, wide open view from a higher vantage point. I could go on. But I'll shut up for now on the view stuff. Another point I believe that this Raby fellow may be trying to make as well is that we as a whole need to quit compromising integrity and respect for that which gives us life. Nature. Just for a paycheck. Most people we work for come from bigger money than most of us ever get to feel the benefits of. A lot of people complain about this. But what do we all do when it comes down to it? Cater to them. Give them what they want. Because they pay us. And it's always, "well if it's not me it's the other guy getting their money". I think part of Rabys point is that ALL of us should stop catering to these people. Us, the other guy, everyone who does the work. Because then who would do it? I realize this is a pretty impossible change. I'm just saying I think I get where the guy is coming from. I think it is a possible change. Just a very hard one to see come to life as long as everyone is so fearful of lack of money. There will always be plenty of legit work for all of us I believe.

 

[guymayor]

" I realize this is a pretty impossible change. I'm just saying I think I get where the guy is coming from. I think it is a possible change."

You were right the first time.