"Tree Experts" and "Tree Preservation" companies; misnamed and misleading.

EAB, ALB, Hemlock adelgid, Oak wilt, Sudden Oak Death, the list goes on of potentially catastrophic tree and ecosystem loss. I live in central Ohio and EAB has been devastating.
Some of us PHC guys are quite knowledgeable AND responsible. To use such blanket statements about PHC is what's irresponsible and largely unprofessional.

Humans and human action is inherently flawed as the majority tend to look at the world from a human centric position. I love tress but I also love the planet and all life on it. Some of us value trees and consider the loss of mature elms, oaks, ash, etc etc as a bad thing because of the value we have placed on them. Humans lose out, and some animals and birds and insects that were using and enjoying them, however it is part of a natural cycle. Within tree death the decline in health and resulting softening wood structure etc etc is of benefit to an abundance of life. This life is not able to thrive and enjoy the decline of trees humans mark with an X and remove due to the risk to human life. We remove beneficial habitat all of the time. Forests affected by pine bark beetle for example are meant to die to help with the spread of wild fires so that the regeneration can be as full of nutrients as possible, yet we try and kill the beetle and stop the fires. Humans cannot and should attempt to control and manipulate the world around them and this is their failing. Zika is a prime and current example of the nonsensical human action which is a case of nature versus human's 'scientific' approach to the world around them; let us kill mosquitoes using a spray of noxious pesticide that also kills beneficial and essential pollinating insects and has the chance of causing cancer and other incurable diseases in humans just to reduce the chances of some women carrying a fetus with a very low chance of survival. IPM / PHC is full of toxic chemicals that are misrepresented to the professional and to the public as being safe firstly because they have ridiculous names such as 'Merit' which is a potent insecticide which in my opinion has no place on this planet. However, the general definition of the word 'merit' is "the quality of being particularly good or worthy, especially so as to deserve praise or reward." If this isn't a blatant example of misdirection then I do not know what else to say. I appreciate your comments but please, open your eyes and your minds to what really is happening here. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
 
10 years is not long enough to support all those absolute judgments. Maybe the idealism could be tempered with some humility.

Mr Dendro. Ten years of tree care work does not in any way mean that my mind cannot be more aware of my surroundings than someone with a larger number of years of experience working in the same industry. I am not claiming to be more technically experienced than someone with more years experience, nor to know more about the science of tree care. What I am trying to say is that perhaps much of what we have become used to seeing is not necessarily the right thing to do. There is much of the world around us that we have become used to which if you look at it with pure objectivity, is completely illogical. In case you require some examples I will provide a few; using fossil fuels; drinking coke; buying from Walmart, Amazon and Costco; eating frozen pizza. There are thousands of daily activities that simply should not happen but we do not think anything of it. The same goes for what we do in and around trees. Ideals are essential for trying to affect change for the better within this fucked up world. I am probably the most humble person, who has humility in abundance and massive amounts of empathy. I despise ego yet see it as the cause of so much wrong doing around me. If we could all take some time to consider that perhaps what we are doing is not the right thing, then the world may have a chance. Otherwise, well....I should not have to spell it out.
 
I think I understand fairly well where this guy is coming from. Especially on the view stuff. I try to stay away from that shit. View work is bullshit in my opinion. If you want to live in the mountains, live in the mountains. Live with the trees. As they are. Appreciate the view that is given. Naturally. If you have hazards, sure mitigate them. But if you are just some rich prick who wants a better view I say get bent. If you have the millions for the home on that mountain, you should have the few bucks to put in the tank of your Benz or whatever to take a little drive and enjoy a very big, wide open view from a higher vantage point. I could go on. But I'll shut up for now on the view stuff. Another point I believe that this Raby fellow may be trying to make as well is that we as a whole need to quit compromising integrity and respect for that which gives us life. Nature. Just for a paycheck. Most people we work for come from bigger money than most of us ever get to feel the benefits of. A lot of people complain about this. But what do we all do when it comes down to it? Cater to them. Give them what they want. Because they pay us. And it's always, "well if it's not me it's the other guy getting their money". I think part of Rabys point is that ALL of us should stop catering to these people. Us, the other guy, everyone who does the work. Because then who would do it? I realize this is a pretty impossible change. I'm just saying I think I get where the guy is coming from. I think it is a possible change. Just a very hard one to see come to life as long as everyone is so fearful of lack of money. There will always be plenty of legit work for all of us I believe.


Finally; someone who understands my point of view. Thank you. Your comments about view pruning are dead on. I see what I like to call 'view greed' all of the time and a classic example of this was Mr Dendro's (Guy Mayor) where from the photographs there was an amazing view of the surrounding landscape which included the tree which the client wanted to be removed from the view; even that statement does not make sense. If you dont want trees in your view; dont buy a house with trees in your view. I usually dislike most car stickers but the one that says 'Trees ARE the View' is priceless.

Thank you again. I am glad I am not completely alone in my thinking. Phew.
 
...There is much of the world around us that we have become used to which if you look at it with pure objectivity, is completely illogical. In case you require some examples I will provide a few; using fossil fuels; drinking coke; buying from Walmart, Amazon and Costco; eating frozen pizza..."

I am guilty of all them things! A serial offender.
Innumerable other greater and lesser transgressions, for sure.

"If I can help somebody, then my living has not been in vain" is a line or title of a (Christian) hymn/song/whatever - sorry 'bout referencing that, Dunlop). I think the sentiment that you, I, we, should try to leave this world a better place than we found it is reasonable.

However.... in the grand scheme of things, (the rich pageantry of life) getting bent outta shape over the "crime" (Das Horror) in vista pruning, or whacking trees interfering with someone's view is completely trivial. Trivial to the point of utter absurdity. Ludicrous. Stupid, even.
 
I am probably the most humble person, who has humility in abundance and massive amounts of empathy.

I read this part of your post to myself in my best Donald Trump voice impression. Laughed so hard I farted.

I take a more nuanced or pragmatic view of tree care and landscaping. I agree with you and Shigo that there are many harmful and unnecessary tree work practices sold to homeowners. However, I think there is a time and place for the judicious use of pesticides.

Also I believe we would have saved millions of humans from malaria if DDT hadn't been banned and I think the benefits would have justified it over the consequences.
 
Humans and human action is inherently flawed as the majority tend to look at the world from a human centric position. I love tress but I also love the planet and all life on it. Some of us value trees and consider the loss of mature elms, oaks, ash, etc etc as a bad thing because of the value we have placed on them. Humans lose out, and some animals and birds and insects that were using and enjoying them, however it is part of a natural cycle. Within tree death the decline in health and resulting softening wood structure etc etc is of benefit to an abundance of life. This life is not able to thrive and enjoy the decline of trees humans mark with an X and remove due to the risk to human life. We remove beneficial habitat all of the time. Forests affected by pine bark beetle for example are meant to die to help with the spread of wild fires so that the regeneration can be as full of nutrients as possible, yet we try and kill the beetle and stop the fires. Humans cannot and should attempt to control and manipulate the world around them and this is their failing. Zika is a prime and current example of the nonsensical human action which is a case of nature versus human's 'scientific' approach to the world around them; let us kill mosquitoes using a spray of noxious pesticide that also kills beneficial and essential pollinating insects and has the chance of causing cancer and other incurable diseases in humans just to reduce the chances of some women carrying a fetus with a very low chance of survival. IPM / PHC is full of toxic chemicals that are misrepresented to the professional and to the public as being safe firstly because they have ridiculous names such as 'Merit' which is a potent insecticide which in my opinion has no place on this planet. However, the general definition of the word 'merit' is "the quality of being particularly good or worthy, especially so as to deserve praise or reward." If this isn't a blatant example of misdirection then I do not know what else to say. I appreciate your comments but please, open your eyes and your minds to what really is happening here. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
Well, I'll be damned if I dont admire your tenacity and determination. Good on you.

I'm willing to bet you'll disagree with all my following points, but this conversation should be had nevertheless.

Part of "opening one's eyes and mind"requires an attempt to delve into the science as well as compromising with people at times. Lets give a whirl.

No one on this site would ever advocate the mass blanket spraying that has led to some mass beneficial insect kills you've mentioned. But at no time have you mentioned organic or bio-rational pest contol solutions but rather insist that ANY application for ANY situation is inherently wrong. Would I rather see someone using neem oil or soap to control certain pests, especially on crops, rather than a broad spectrum product? Without question, in fact it's what Ive used and advocated to others. How about Floramite (bifenazate). Exceptionally low mammilian toxicity and little to no impact on beneficials.

"MAN, YER JUST BUYING THE SECRETS AND LIES OF BIG CHEM MAN!"

Not quite. Personally have an strong aversion to them, Big Oil, Big Pharma, etc. However, Ive not only studied extensively on the subject but, most importantly, reach out to the experts and the professors in the field that DONT work for the Monsantos and Bayers of the world for pest and disease control tactics and products. Learning from people that know significantly more than I do does require a measured dose of humility that Guy recommended. I start each day thinking I know bupkis about trees and that Im going to learn something today. Other side of that coin, I know a hell of a lot more than the bum down the way bidding the same job. But maybe not as much as my peer who's also bidding. Perhaps I'll talk him up, pick their brain, and a learning friendship can begin.

Comprimises. Ive thought of a few over the years that I think have Merit (intentional capitalization) but would be also exceptionally difficult to get through lobbyists let alone government.

1. Make broad spectrum pesticides all Restricted Use. While were at it, lets make state pesticide applicator licences actually difficult to get. This would eliminate a remarkable amount of ecologically impactful applications. Getting many products off the homeowner market may be even more difficult to pass. But, did Grwat Aunt Gertie remember she sprayed the tomatoes 30 minutes ago? BLT and Sevin sandwich anyone?
2. More stringent labeling. Merit is likely to be over and incorrectly used. The newer " Bee Boxes" are a decent start but how about some actual lists of species restrictions? There is also some good research (Ferrini did one off the top of my head) that the residual for imidacloprid is a great deal longer than previously thought, or for that matter, advertised.
3. Greater push in our industry (not just us arborists) for Green techniques and better plant selection. Most on this board are saying Amen but the concept is lost on some companies. Some of the best work I do involves compost and an air spade. How bout nutrient recycling on every site? My neighbors may dislike my ratty looking mulch layers from all the plant debris but also compliment how my gardens thrive.
4. Demand more organic and bio rational products. I use A LOT of Triact neem, Spinosyn, azadiractin, soap, oil etc. We need more and hopefully we can one day have some systemic options for devastating pests and diseases. This will take time but solutions are out there.

Speaking of devastaing pests and diseases, perhaps I didnt paint a graphic enough picture. Here's a Monet for you.
American chestnut - Cryphonectria, blight. ( I know of ONE up in NW Ohio. Pretty cool to see).
American elm - Ophiostoma, DED
Fraxinus - Agrilis, EAB
Oak Wilt - Ceratocystis
Let's see, what species are left in my northern and midwest forests...Oh yeah
Beeech bark disease - Nectria canker and scale complex
Asian Long Horned borer - Holy crow look at all the species it eats...
We also have to mention anthropogenic decline likely causing things like maple, oak, and hickory decline. Looks like I ran out of hardwood species to kill off. Many , many things need to change and some comprimises will need to be met.

Than again, perhaps you feel our dying forests will make great humus for the future meadows in the east and midwest, thats the natural order of things after all. From the earth, back to the earth. I for one want to show my grand kids a 400 year old white oak.

Imagine those breath taking and awe inspiring views you have of Puget Sound and Mt. Ranier. Now imagine seeing something like this instead. Its a dead ash forest.
2991.webp
I for one won't sit idly by, ignore science, and refuse to compromise.
 
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"I am probably the most humble person, who has humility in abundance and massive amounts of empathy. "

Kelly beat me to it; trumpedly oxymoronic. Yes I reduce trees for view; btw that pruning was for MY view and I'll be managing the regrowth, and seeing what the trees have to tell me.

I remember being that judgmental, 40 years ago. Time is the greatest teacher.
 
Raby
Its almost as if you're a stones throw away from getting rid of modern science in general. I get the anti corporation and government distrust, believe me on that. But science has also given us vaccinations (no, doesnt cause autism), solar power, and hell, the discovery of planets around other stars. Things will get better but stay involved and keep learning.

Beer thirty,
Im out.
 
Well, I'll be damned if I dont admire your tenacity and determination. Good on you.

I'm willing to bet you'll disagree with all my following points, but this conversation should be had nevertheless.

Part of "opening one's eyes and mind"requires an attempt to delve into the science as well as compromising with people at times. Lets give a whirl.

No one on this site would ever advocate the mass blanket spraying that has led to some mass beneficial insect kills you've mentioned. But at no time have you mentioned organic or bio-rational pest contol solutions but rather insist that ANY application for ANY situation is inherently wrong. Would I rather see someone using neem oil or soap to control certain pests, especially on crops, rather than a broad spectrum product? Without question, in fact it's what Ive used and advocated to others. How about Floramite (bifenazate). Exceptionally low mammilian toxicity and little to no impact on beneficials.

"MAN, YER JUST BUYING THE SECRETS AND LIES OF BIG CHEM MAN!"

Not quite. Personally have an strong aversion to them, Big Oil, Big Pharma, etc. However, Ive not only studied extensively on the subject but, most importantly, reach out to the experts and the professors in the field that DONT work for the Monsantos and Bayers of the world for pest and disease control tactics and products. Learning from people that know significantly more than I do does require a measured dose of humility that Guy recommended. I start each day thinking I know bupkis about trees and that Im going to learn something today. Other side of that coin, I know a hell of a lot more than the bum down the way bidding the same job. But maybe not as much as my peer who's also bidding. Perhaps I'll talk him up, pick their brain, and a learning friendship can begin.

Comprimises. Ive thought of a few over the years that I think have Merit (intentional capitalization) but would be also exceptionally difficult to get through lobbyists let alone government.

1. Make broad spectrum pesticides all Restricted Use. While were at it, lets make state pesticide applicator licences actually difficult to get. This would eliminate a remarkable amount of ecologically impactful applications. Getting many products off the homeowner market may be even more difficult to pass. But, did Grwat Aunt Gertie remember she sprayed the tomatoes 30 minutes ago? BLT and Sevin sandwich anyone?
2. More stringent labeling. Merit is likely to be over and incorrectly used. The newer " Bee Boxes" are a decent start but how about some actual lists of species restrictions? There is also some good research (Ferrini did one off the top of my head) that the residual for imidacloprid is a great deal longer than previously thought, or for that matter, advertised.
3. Greater push in our industry (not just us arborists) for Green techniques and better plant selection. Most on this board are saying Amen but the concept is lost on some companies. Some of the best work I do involves compost and an air spade. How bout nutrient recycling on every site? My neighbors may dislike my ratty looking mulch layers from all the plant debris but also compliment how my gardens thrive.
4. Demand more organic and bio rational products. I use A LOT of Triact neem, Spinosyn, azadiractin, soap, oil etc. We need more and hopefully we can one day have some systemic options for devastating pests and diseases. This will take time but solutions are out there.

Speaking of devastaing pests and diseases, perhaps I didnt paint a graphic enough picture. Here's a Monet for you.
American chestnut - Cryphonectria, blight. ( I know of ONE up in NW Ohio. Pretty cool to see).
American elm - Ophiostoma, DED
Fraxinus - Agrilis, EAB
Oak Wilt - Ceratocystis
Let's see, what species are left in my northern and midwest forests...Oh yeah
Beeech bark disease - Nectria canker and scale complex
Asian Long Horned borer - Holy crow look at all the species it eats...
We also have to mention anthropogenic decline likely causing things like maple, oak, and hickory decline. Looks like I ran out of hardwood species to kill off. Many , many things need to change and some comprimises will need to be met.

Than again, perhaps you feel our dying forests will make great humus for the future meadows in the east and midwest, thats the natural order of things after all. From the earth, back to the earth. I for one want to show my grand kids a 400 year old white oak.

Imagine those breath taking and awe inspiring views you have of Puget Sound and Mt. Ranier. Now imagine seeing something like this instead. Its a dead ash forest.
View attachment 39726
I for one won't sit idly by, ignore science, and refuse to compromise.
So the solution is to inject every ash tree with imidacloprid? I'm not following what your saying.
 
So the solution is to inject every ash tree with imidacloprid? I'm not following what your saying.
Meant to include a paragraph about implementing improved controls to help keep more of these exotic/introduced pests and diseases out of our forests and landscapes. That rolls into how pesticides are going to help control (hopefully) localized outbreaks before they spread uncontrollably like EAB has.
EAB will consume our forest ash and the only ones left will be some residential and municapal trees. Sigh.
I use emamectin for residential EAB control. Best solution we have at the moment.
 
Much like DED. Hoping some natural resistance to be found and cloned or perhaps hybridization like many elms planted now.
 
Putting dope in them isn't going to help find any natural resistance. Which is more or less an impossibility as eab and ashes didn't grow up together. I don't see any merit to using drugs other than keeping around a nice tree for a few more years for Mrs Smith. Does not do any good for anyone or anytree in the long run. Just puts a nasty product in the environment and makes a few $$
 
Ash and EAB did evolve together, it is just that "our" ash did not. The genus Fraxinus is common within the native range of Agrilus planipennis and as such there is likely some natural resistance and perhaps tolerance as well as (there are) parasitic organisms.
 
As far as resistance, either there's a small % that have it or there isnt. For those that do, what % of their progeny will possess those traits and how long will it take for appreciable spread? Awfully hard to say.

Here's a paper with some Midwest universities dealing with some neonics and emamectin:
From what I can tell, these products can be used safely and effectively in the right situations and on the right species. Perhaps some of our board experts can chime in with points regarding effect on beneficials, longevity in the environment, etc.
See also Dr. McCullough's data EAB control products and length of efficance.

Another potential huge problem that should be discussed is tree injection. Drilling into compromised tissue can breach wall 4 and lead to subsequent decay spread. There are umerous published works on the after effects of tree drilling and injection treatments. Few debate this so that leads me to believe we have to do a better job of inspecting trees beforehand to determine if it's a good candidate for retention or not. I personally am pushing for using a higher rate of e.m. at low pressure and using a 3 (4?) year treatment cycle. Hopefully drilling less often wont cause as much damage.
This subject certainly needs more discussion and study.

As far as treating the remaining ash relics, yes I will continue to treat some. I've seen this season that the EAB is now starting to go after the smaller caliper native ash now that the larger ones are dead. How long until it burns itself out?
I have no idea.

To paraphrase Jack Hannah, "Can we live in a world without black rhinos? Yes...but do we want to?"
I want to live in a world with native ash trees and the other species under real or potential threat.
 

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Wow…..
The industry is evolving. It will take time to move it into the category of profession akin to the medical field. Remember the medical field evolved through some pretty crazy iterations. Treatments involving all sorts of nasties. And now, it's going through an industrialization phase where the same principles that developed mass production are being applied to medical care. I know this from experience and also discussion with those much closer to the industry.

As this thread suggests the concept of a higher level of tree care is a many faceted and complex issue. So much needs to change in some many aspects of human life across the planet. Thus go your way, be the educator of the few with the hopes others will begin to follow and see a viable option. In the meantime, unless you've got no need of money then some compromise must be made. That is the beginning of change or better yet, transition.
 

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