Topping video

Good vid for the masses Mark and Melissa.

Almost made me feel a little guilty for all the topping i did last week… almost
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Daniel, the video speaks in general terms allowing the expert when face to face with a client to specify to species and exact location. There are probably more tree cos with no affiliation to ISA or TCIA that promote topping and hat racking then there are who don't. Towns next to me (there's 72 in the county I live in) Top and hack their own trees and there are plenty private trees getting the same treatment.

I applaud the first steps finally being taken to reach out to the public. If you feel that the information was dated or could've been presented better then send a script to the producers.

We've got a long way to go but must take the first step to get there.
 
"When pros hear Mark Chisholm say "proper pruning cuts are made outside the branch collar", who are they going to listen to? "

Definitely Mark; he's telegenic like Gary Cooper! You look like Danny DeVito in comparison...nah not that bad but still

John's got a point re audience, but it would have taken another sentence at most to clarify that big collar cuts can be very bad, and small reduction cuts can be very good. The public is not so dumb or uncaring that they can't process that level of info. Images portraying those concepts would have fit in easily; as it was the pics were pretty ugly.

Many tree owners would want to know more than was in the script, or they already know that it's an oversimplification. Most independent climbing arborists understand the tree better than that. The orgs and corporations resist changing their message away from the heading-cut-centric Negative Nancy view of pruning, because they'd have to update their material.
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12 years on and I still get some rabid feedback; the last was like "how dare you defend reduction cuts?" I sent him enough viewing mtl to last out the winter. This spring the A300 pruning standard might be going out for public review; should be interesting!
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You have a lot more gray hair than the last time I seen you. :)

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Any Mark worth anything has a little grey
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can't argue with that
 
True, true. I appreciate your commitment and guidance, Guy, in making the necessary changes that might be a little foggy in our industry. We should definitely consider each tree, each circumstance when applying our skill. Large cuts should always be avoided if possible and so often the arborist is called in late in the game. What if we could have made the cuts early in the trees life? But no, we get to try to work backwards with a mature tree.

A great example is, of course, the co-dominant stems in a mature tree. At this point you definitely should subordinate rather than hacking half the tree off + the lack of defense. We try to do the best with what's in front of us. Storm damage starts your head spinning.

Sorry I went on for a little there when all I really wanted to say is, "True, true Guy"
 
"just outside" is actually what he said. But let's not quibble. Send them an edited script for the next go round. You must be dealing with a different kind of public. We have to educate people all the time around me. Worse yet, is when the DPW supervisors don't get it. These are the people who make decisions for the care of thousands of trees. If this actually gets seen it may start the conversation at the point where we can explain the nuances.

Changing big corps and organizations is like turning a supertanker at sea... it takes a lot of energy and a long way to get it done.
 
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it would have taken another sentence at most to clarify that big collar cuts can be very bad, and small reduction cuts can be very good. The public is not so dumb or uncaring that they can't process that level of info. Images portraying those concepts would have fit in easily

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Agreed... the argument that this video was intended for the general public falls on its face fast... And IME the general public gets it fast when it is explained properly... Its the tree care industry that doesn't get it.. For a lot of reasons... SLOW TO CHANGE.. if the IT industry moved like we do, the whole world would be using electric typewriters..

So why wasn't it explained properly? Like Guy says, it could have been explained PDQ.. Topping is indiscriminate cuts that remove the top and side limbs in a grossly deforming manner, whereas reduction cuts are made in a way that reduces weight from the branch tips, generally preserving the trees natural shape and form. The amount of reduction is generally from 2'-8', but can be half or more of the limb in special cases where human needs demand it or significant weight reduction is deemed important due to structural compromises.

That's pretty simple, though a little more of a mouthful than "topping is bad".

Every time I explain it to a client they get it. Its the ISA that doesn't get it!!!! Just read the latest edition of the cert arb study guide.

To say that this vid is not intended for pros is ludicrous. How many of the ISA's 7,000 youtube subscribers are pro arborists? And here it is being presented on forum for pro arbs. Whether or not they intended it for pros, they should have enough sense to see that pros would be watching it. Apparently common sense is in short supply in the upper echelons of this industry.

When I started putting vids up and writing on these forums, a lot of experienced arbs gave me feedback that they felt I was talking down to them, patronizing by detailed explanations of basic stuff. And I should have more respect for them. Not too bright of them to fail to realize that though these posts and videos are intended for them, they aren't the only ones watching. I know there are a LOT of lurking newbies on these forums and plenty of homeowners, wanna-bes and weekend warriors watching youtube. So even if my vids are intended for pros, I have to produce them in a way that is understandable and appropriate to newbies, because I know they will be watching. So should the ISA and Stihl know that pros are watching this video.

I think they just don't get it. Hopefully YOU do!
 
I hear you Daniel. I understand and agree with your reduction explanation. But I do think you might be being a little hard on this video as an expression of your concern with reduction pruning. Yes Arborists watch this video, yes it is posted here on this forum, but it is not intended for arborists education. It is, in my opinion, put on this forum to show ways that our industry is reaching out to the public to raise the awareness alone of topping and to slow the bleeding as it were. The next step is to show the preferred way of reducing a tree’s canopy. I agree it could have easily made it into the video, but it didn’t change my idea of how to prune a tree – it showed me that there is an attempt to discourage people from topping their trees.

Arborists should be aware of the healthy ways to reduce a tree’s canopy, but they aren't relying on this video for that kind of information. It takes experience to see what works and doesn’t, a background and knowledge in the tree’s behavior and biology, and all that other stuff.

Daniel, don’t get me wrong – I really think you are a superb arborist and I applaud your service to our industry. I agree that it is easy to explain reduction to the public person by person, and they get it. I have not yet, well maybe a couple of people, but not yet encountered someone that didn’t understand the need for the proper reduction of their tree rather than their request for topping, but that was the first they heard of it! We need to reach these people with whatever we can. If they are the type that watch youtube to prune their trees, at least they will see the arborist community discouraging topping.

So yes, I agree it could have included a bit on reduction, but the video it worth its weight in gold just as it is. In my area, out in the country, people have chainsaws and the courage to get up in their own tree to make it smaller. The message they need to hear loud and clear is don’t top your tree, then the rest follows. Arborists, like yourself, must educate people in the proper way and maybe do it for them... and they will love you for it. Seriously drive through my area and you will see why I will cling onto anything that is out there that even mentions the no topping motif. I'm doing my share, but unless I talk to them face to face they are going to continue with this misunderstanding.

Thanks for you Daniel. You are fighting the right battle - I just think this video does more for the effort than you may think.
 
Topping is less of a common practice where I live, but driving through Lancaster PA a couple of months ago was an arboricultural shocker. Topping there appears to be very much in vogue. Just saying.
 
I hope Mark can take my comments as constructive criticism, without malice or offense intended. He's one of my heroes. I probably wouldn't be in the tree biz today if it weren't for him and a course he gave, circa 2001, which totally bumped my career to the next level. I will always be grateful to him for that. And he's a great spokesman for the industry. SO THANK YOU Mark.

Any one that would like more clarification on reduction pruning might consider coming to see Dr Gilman's talk at the penn-del ISA conference in Lancaster PA on Feb 23. Dr G has said " I have been showing case histories of reduction pruning to preserve and retain trees. It is the most under-used arboriculture strategy in the US."

So if you can make it this year, I'll see you there. Its a great line up this year. this is the line up just for Monday.
Sunday is awesome too.

MONDAY FEBRUARY 24, 2014

REGISTRATION BEGINS AT 7:30 AM
EXHIBIT HALL OPENS AT 7:30 AM

Morning: General Session

9:30 – 10am Welcome and Announcements

10– 11am Reduction Cuts or Removal Cuts: Does It Really Matter?
Ed Gilman, Ph.D., Professor of Environmental Horticulture, University of Florida

How we apply pruning cuts impacts future growth and decay, and can have a major impact on tree response in storms. Do we really understand the biology and structural response to pruning? Can we predict how trees will respond to our treatments?

Morning: General Session: Continued

11:15am – 12:15pm Assessing Tree Structure As It Relates To Loads
Bruce Fraedrich, Ph.D., Vice President of Research, Bartlett
Tree Research Lab

Trees or tree parts fail when loads exceed strength of the wood. Tree architecture and certain defects play major roles in determining how trees manage loads from wind, rain, snow and gravity. This presentation will explore key tree architectural characteristics that influence stability. The presentation will discuss how trees adapt to loads over time and how this response growth contributes to long term stability. Finally there will be a brief discussion of tools and techniques that are being used to assess stability in both practice and in research.
12:15 – 1:30pm Lunch, Sponsored by The Crane Man

Afternoon Breakout Sessions: Disease I.D. Workshop

2:55- 5pm Winter Pest Scouting
Sandy Feather, Extension Horticulture Educator, Penn State University

Landscape professionals often give estimates during winter months when many pest problems are not so obvious. This session uses live samples of insect and disease problems on trees and shrubs as they appear in winter. Participants are given a chance to examine the samples on their own, then go over them as a class with the presenter. Pesticide Credits applied for this course.

This course is limited to 60 participants. Sign up at registration.

Afternoon Breakout Sessions: Climber/Tree Worker

1:45 – 2:40pm Cabling and Bracing Trees
John Ball, Ph.D., South Dakota State University

Tree support systems have come a long way in the past decade. There are new materials and techniques to support tree load, but with these comes a great need to understand when and where the different systems are appropriate. This session will cover the current systems from static to dynamic and show how they are installed and situations where they can beneficial.

2:45 – 5pm Understanding Tree Structure and Force in Rigging
Tony Tresselt, Lead Instructor North American Training Solutions

Modern tree rigging requires skills, knowledge, and equipment like never before. But first and foremost, the arborist must have firm understand of tree structure and how it bears loads during rigging operations. By rigging "with" the tree and taking trees apart the way they were put together, safety and productivity can be enhanced.

Afternoon Breakout Sessions: Utility and Pesticide Applicators Education

1:45 – 2:45pm Pollinators and Pesticides
Dr. Bill Rider, Pesticide education Specialist, Penn State University

Pollinators are a very hot issue right now. This one-hour core presentation will outline everything you need to know about protecting pollinators when applying pesticides. Pesticide Credits applied for this course.

2:55 – 3:55 Economical and Reliable Electric Distribution Tree Maintenance Rick Johnstone , President of Integrated Vegetation Management Partners

Trees are a major factor in electric distribution outages and drive maintenance budget dollars. Short-term economics drives low bid contracting for routine mowing and tree trimming. This paper will review best management practices and various contracting methods relative to their impact on system reliability, crew productivity and economics.
4:10 – 5:10 Overlooked Steps to Getting the Correct Rate
Dr. Bill Rider, Pesticide education Specialist, Penn State University

This talk examines why you may not be getting the correct rate of pesticides for your applications. The information presented is a real eye opener for many people who are making wrong assumptions make for bad applications. Pesticide Credits applied for this course.
Afternoon Break-Out Sessions: Plant Health Care

1:45 – 2:45 “Treeage”: The Art of Urban Tree Triage
Rex A. Bastian, Ph.D., Regional Technical Advisor
The Care of Trees/Davey Tree Expert Company

All tree pest problems are not created equally. Some are more serious than others. Some can result in death if not addressed immediately. Others may appear to be serious, but actually pose little threat. Using a system developed by the U.S. military to access battlefield injuries you can apply similar techniques to access the severity of tree pests. Pesticide Credits applied for this course.

2:55 – 3:55 Not All Bugs Are Bad: Beneficial Insects in Landscape Pest Management
Tim Abbey Penn State Extension Commercial Horticulture Educator

Most insects that we encounter are not pests. There are many insects that play a vital role in managing plant feeding insect populations. This presentation will cover identification of beneficial insects and what insecticides can be used to conserve their populations. Pesticide Credits applied for this course.

4:10 – 5:10 IPM for Conifers
Bruce R. Fraedrich Ph.D., Vice President for Research, Bartlett Tree Research Laboratories

Insect and disease problems are increasing on many conifer species throughout Pennsylvania and surrounding states. Needlecasts, shoot blights, cankers, scale insects, mites and borers are being identified with increasing frequency. This presentation will review major pests of conifers and discuss management strategies to maintain the health of conifers. Pesticide Credits applied for this course.

Afternoon Breakout Sessions: Business and Municipal Arboriculture

1:45 – 2:45 Planting with a Purpose
Aren Flint, Urban Forester and Business Developer, Davey Tree
Resource Group

Tree planting is an annual occurrence in most urban forestry programs. Whether 500 trees a year or 10 trees a year, are planted trees serving the community best? This session visits examples of communities strategically planting trees to maximize benefits trees provide the community.

2:55 – 3:55 Client Service: Don’t Let it Be Your Competitive Disadvantage
Phil Snyder, Vice President of East Atlantic Operations, The Davey Tree Expert Company

Improving the quality of service can be as inexpensive as instilling more responsive tactics in your team which can be dramatically visible to clients. As companies outside our industry continue to raise the bar around our clients’ service experiences, it’s vital that your team keeps pace with these advances. This session will explore several easily transferrable client service concepts, which can create instant impact and competitive positioning over time
4:10 – 5:00 How Arborists can use Social Media
April Hutcheson
Executive Director Pennsylvania Delaware Chapter of ISA

Social media is changing the way that businesses are reaching their customers. It is easier then ever before to spread the word about your work without the cost of mainstream advertising. Learn how to create loyal followers, set up your own business Facebook page and use innovative techniques to keep your customers informed about what is going on in your business.
BEEF AND BEER SUPPER
5:00-7:00 pm

SPECIAL MONDAY EVENING SESSION WITH ED GILMAN
7:00 – 9:00 P.M. Title: Structural Pruning at Planting: Crucial for Upping Your Game.

Prune at planting? I thought we didn't do that! Roots and shoots are best pruned at planting to correct structural deficiencies because most never get pruned again for structure. Nursery stock arriving with inferior structure WILL benefit from pruning. We show you the way. There is sure to be plenty of discussion and disagreement. Come prepared to defend your position - I will.
 
Some of youse disagree with this paragraph(?) .....that darn 1/3rd guideline, etc.
I think Dr. Ed Gilman is affiliated with the University that published this material??

hort.ufl.edu/woody/stem-reduction.shtml


A reduction cut (also referred to as a drop-crotch cut) shortens a branch by removing a stem back to a lateral branch that is large enough to resist extensive disfunction and decay behind the cut. This is generally interpreted as cutting back to a lateral branch that is at least one-third the diameter of the cut stem. Sprouts commonly follow a reduction cut. In most cases these should not be removed because they help the retained portion of the branch retard decay. When the branch that remains is less than about one-third the diameter of the cut stem, the cut is considered a heading cut. Heading cuts are not considered appropriate in most instances in the landscape. Heading cuts are sometimes necessary when attempting to restore trees following storm damage.



• Copyright 2011 | University of Florida | Site Feedback | Last Modified: March 26, 2013
 
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we need to realize that an overload of information or all the details of CODIT and so on will be lost.

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John,
I appreciate your perspective and contribution to this conversation. This one particular statement is telling about the state of misunderstanding in the industry. the smaller the cut and the farther away from the trunk the less importance the placement of the cut. When you're taking the end off a small limb with a 2-3" cut, CODIT is not a factor. (Of course its always good to make the best cut you can).

And the myth perpetrated by this video that the "branch cannot properly compartmentalize the decay", which I've heard and read from many sources is way off... complete nonsense. Trees evolved to handle decay... whatever decay happens from a 2" reduction cut is inconsequential to the tree's structure. Its the big cuts on the main stem that matter. That main stem has so much weight to support above the decay... when that decay causes the tree to fail, its a big threat. Little cut, little decay, little weight to support.. NO THREAT!
 
Yeah sorry, I was using that lightly when I said CODIT. I just meant there is much study and history that is maybe too much to put into a basic video. I used CODIT not as a factor in reduction, but as an example of how our industry has developed over the years. Shigo turned a lot of heads when he presented much of his studies to arborists and the public.

My pole saws still have the little loop on them for holding the brush to cover wounds - I’ve never used it but it is a reminder of where we have been.

As I was saying I brought up CODIT as an example of deeper information with a history that we might still be developing ourselves that the audience of this video wouldn’t need to be privy to. I am not suggesting they shouldn’t know all the ins and outs of tree care, I would love that, but I am saying that is what distinguishes the Arborist and allows them to be professionals in the field.

I would like to just say that I am not pretending to know more about this than you or anyone else on this forum I am just learning by discussing and contributing to these topics. Daniel, all that you just explained is fantastic stuff. I use the same mentality when pruning and it is great to hear from you on the further details. I am picking up what you are laying down!

I see what you had mentioned before about the ‘latest edition of the arb study guide’ – You are on to something. When reading it I feel I always add content between the lines to make it more comprehensive filling in each paragraph with “except when” and “only if” and so on… but not realizing that without my prior understanding and experience it would seem to be discouraging reduction cuts based on that they do not heal as well and promoting thinning cuts as they reflect where branches are shed naturally. If I didn’t fill in, “but a small reduction cut is way better than a huge thinning cut” I wouldn’t get the full comprehension of the subject (Which I probably don’t anyway).

Okay, I just looked at all I have written and am now thinking I should shut up and let you say it better. Thanks for your details and expertise Daniel – You prove your worth by continued excellence in your field.

Thank you.
 
Daniel, in every technical communications and business communications course I've ever taken the first step in structuring whatever you're attempting to use to deliver a message needs to be targeted to your intended audience. Is it a technically competent audience (trained arborists), adult lay people, grade 6 kids? The difference is huge and when the time frame being worked in doesn't change it makes the job that much harder. Marketing executives I've worked with have explained to me that when you're using mass media you still need to target your message to your intended audience despite that others may be watching. In other words, don't sweat the ones that don't get it or are offended by it.

Think about the super bowl Maserati ad as an example. It was written to appeal to their target market, whom they knew would be watching. It wasn't meant to appeal to everyone who would see it. When I watched hockey games in Toronto an industrial fastener company would run ads. When asked they said that their market was watching the games and it was the most bang they could get for the buck. The ad was of no interest to me, my brother, dad or any number of fans watching the game but, it worked.

What do you take the word, "properly" to mean in the context of the sentence? It could be very well that their scriptwriter did a crap job. That there is a massive fraud being perpetrated on the public. Possibly the organization is just that mired in their past. To me, its enough to convey the key message and to allow you and I, the professionals, to spend the time to elaborate.
 
I would just like to add the "Arborists' Certification Study Guide" is one of my favorite books. I am merely saying it helps to have experience as a side dish while reading it. I am not claiming it is full of misleading information. It's great stuff and I am a better person cause of it. (:
 
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Some of youse disagree with this paragraph(?)

[/ QUOTE ] Yes.

"Sprouts commonly follow a reduction cut."

Even in Florida sprouting is pretty rare when reducing to a big lateral.

"Heading cuts" is a vague and useless term. In May I heard Dr. G say "there's 2 things to do with a branch: remove it or reduce it", over and over. There's no reason to add another term or another decision by the arborist in the tree.

The size of the wound made matters a whole lot more than the relative size of the remaining lateral.

So when the webpage is next revised, you might see some reduction (of terms) pruning done on it.
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What do you take the word, "properly" to mean in the context of the sentence? It could be very well that their scriptwriter did a crap job. That there is a massive fraud being perpetrated on the public. Possibly the organization is just that mired in their past. To me, its enough to convey the key message and to allow you and I, the professionals, to spend the time to elaborate.

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Blah blah blah...
who is the ISA's audience? who is stihl's audience? who is Mark's audience?
Even if it was exclusively to homeowners which is ridiculous... it is simply a bad message, that says more about how the ISA is slow to change (as is the entire industry)than how it is providing a valuable public service message. "Topping is bad" alone is not enough.. to the homeowner or anyone else... There are many other forms of acceptable pruning, and there its important to make a distinction between reduction pruning and topping.. Is it too much to ask for the ISA to take a couple minutes to touch on that point?

I personally don't think its because their target audience is non-pros. that's just an excuse IMO. I think they just don't know any better.. Its right in the study guide.. pg 120. trees do not respond quite as well to this type of pruning(reduction) because they cannot readily compartmentalize the wound... That is passe brothers and sisters. Published as late as 2010 by the ISA..
 
Then Daniel, I'll put it to you to make a HO targeted video under 3 mins that we can use as a better alternative.

And in the case of this video it is exclusively HOs, ridiculous as that may seem. Because, as you experienced yourself, you can't please or even communicate a single message to a broad audience. Like it or not, that is reality in the real world.

Here's a little exercise for you. write a paragraph explaining anything to an audience of experts. Now rewrite it for an audience of Grade 6 students. Then tell me it can be done simultaneously.

And in the meantime let's ask Mark who the intended audience was.

As for your beef with the ISA, I've yet to come across any industry association (including the IT industry which I worked in) that didn't move slowly and with caution where there were major players who seemingly held it back. Hmmm, not much different than the rest of society, led kicking and screaming into the future.

I look forward to your production.
 
Wow I am impressed that the video created such a stir amongst everyone and love the great dialogue about the topic.

This video was an attempt...think baby steps. The fact that ISA and Stihl collaborated and then provided resources to the project and then made a deliverable product was impressive.

Could it have been better, of course. Could the video have covered more technical concepts, yes. But alas it was a pilot project to educate the homeowner.

The need of educating the public about the importance of calling insured, certified arborists was a huge focus too, one that seems to have been lost here.

The certified arborist when meeting with the client for the first time can then gauge the level information to share with the homeowner. Hence it is where our job as a professional comes in.

It's a start... it's not perfect. Appreciate the feedback, great indeed.

PS- Professional actors... no, but we did have a blast doing it.
 
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