TIP Failure

In my opinion a tie in that far from the union shouldn't be relied on, ever. TIP failures are becoming more common as climbers adopt SRT.
Dr. Ball is reporting a big increase in accidents resulting from tie-in failure.
I don't think people appreciate the fulcrum effect clearly. A visual 'feel' isn't enough. I certainly can't judge the physics by visual. And a bounce test is being shown now as probably not the best idea, for a couple of reasons.
The loss of 'strength' diminishes more rapidly than one might think as the distance from the crotch to the tie in increases. Add to that the repetitive sharp flex that a limb endures when a particularly dynamic climber chugs up a rope.
The kinds of testing that Richard and others are doing is really important.

Thanks for sharing this, as these things need to be more widely understood. If I hadn't been following the science and the accumulating incidents over the last while, I might have decided that this tie-in was adequate just by gut feel and a quick test.
 
Frax said:
In my opinion a tie in that far from the union shouldn't be relied on, ever. TIP failures are becoming more common as climbers adopt SRT.
Dr. Ball is reporting a big increase in accidents resulting from tie-in failure.
I don't think people appreciate the fulcrum effect clearly. A visual 'feel' isn't enough. I certainly can't judge the physics by visual. And a bounce test is being shown,....
The kinds of testing that Richard and others are doing is really important.
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Thanks, I was starting to feel a little chastised for bucking traditional methods. Not that that stops me from bucking traditional methods. ;-)
 
Nothin' wrong with setting an access TIP just below the desired area of ones PSP. Access tree, get to desired height or canopy area for PSP (now that you can choose what size or angle limb/tree part you want to anchor to after inspecting it), set your now inspected PSP.
Not always efficient, not always necessary either.
But I have never had anyone ever suggest this idea to me. I've bee told bounce the shit out of my line with my weight, straight pull with two men, or what ever else.
For any time ive wasted to time where I do this, I bet I've saved by not climbing on at least one shitty TIP. And if that's not true, the thought that it is keeps me that much safer I suppose.
 
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Help me with this hypothetical even though real situations are tough to assess, let alone hypothetical ones....


Say there's a vertical limb coming off where his rope was/ where the failure occurred, or whatever angle, but effectively creating a crotch. I don't think I'd have second guessed the diameter of the limb had there been a crotch.

My question is, should that hypothetical crotch exist, original limb angle being the same, just add in crotch of some sort, what type of strength gain are we talking?

Part of me says I wouldn't have second guessed it if it had been a crotch of some sort right there in that exact location.

Thoughts? I've been thinking about this a lot and about sweet gums a lot. Found one about 120ft+/- that I'd like to climb this winter and the failures reported in them have me thinking.


Edited part out because I read it wrong.
 
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I can't really answer your question but there are trees I stay at main unions. gum, pine,birch,poplar for some examples. Of crourse if we're talking huge lead i may change up a bit. What i can say is in 18 years I have never broken out a TIP. SRT doesn't make me lighter, just faster. I remain a conservative climber. Life is longer that way.
 
Steve Connally said:
I can't really answer your question but there are trees I stay at main unions. gum, pine,birch,poplar for some examples. Of crourse if we're talking huge lead i may change up a bit. What i can say is in 18 years I have never broken out a TIP. SRT doesn't make me lighter, just faster. I remain a conservative climber. Life is longer that way.
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I would agree with that. I can't say that I haven't taken a throw on a bur oak, white oak, or red oak, that I couldn't get down into a the crotch. I do tend to lean more conservative the more I climb, in that regard though. Just not worth the risk of not coming home because I was too lazy to pull it back out and hit something that would settle into a crotch. This post has actually changed that.


Of course there are exceptions, but it certainly usually isn't when I'm shooting for the high golden crotch. Generally when I have something lower and more specific to go after and I just need in the tree and I can obviously get by with it.
 
TreeCo said:
In my experience sweet gum is fairly brittle.

This time of year sweet gum is loaded with fruit that can be quite a heavy load.

It is very common this time of year for sweet gum to have limbs break out in minor winds.

Glad this one broke when tested!

.
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They break out here, without even wind.

SG is Trash Wood, just like a lot of the Popular around here.

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@hsell; Nice photos. Pretty frightening.

Welcome to the TreeBuzz forum, just in case I haven't already said it. I look forward to hearing more from you.

Tim
 
Honestly that picture is no testament to the strength of a gun tree. They are a very hardy tree. People hate them because of the gum balls. That pic Clearly shows rot and included bark as well as a lot of trapped moisture. Aka hazard tree. Has nothing to do with it being a gum. I've seen the strongest of oaks do the same thing.
 
So, @Steve Connally, is it always really obvious to you when a tree is in this condition, or do you sometimes only get a hint at it, which causes you to investigate further? Do you often find yourself drilling a tree to see if the wood inside is rotting, or what else is your favorite way of assessing a hazard tree? Thanks for your time.

Tim
 
Steve Connally said:
Honestly that picture is no testament to the strength of a gun tree. They are a very hardy tree. People hate them because of the gum balls. That pic Clearly shows rot and included bark as well as a lot of trapped moisture. Aka hazard tree. Has nothing to do with it being a gum. I've seen the strongest of oaks do the same thing.
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Depends on your location. Folks in the south hate them and they do grow like weeds. Up north they are planted as landscape specimen trees for twig texture and fall color. Different strokes. I saw one once in Arkansas that beavers had completely girdled for a distance of at least 3 feet high on the trunk that lived for at least 3 years after the damage.
 
BEH2202 said:
Me and the guys looked at the branch and the wood grain looked good and straight. I could not find any evidence of a defect or rot. I've got no good convincing explanation. .
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SOunds exactly like summer limb drop... maybe someone mentioned that already as I didn't read the whole thread... was it a hot summer day???
 
I had a guy break out his redirect at the competition this last weekend. Nothing catastrophic, just turned into a scary swing for him and a pretty exciting, whooooo. It was a 3-inch branch and worked well until he tried to make a big swing to come back and of course the stress and the angles changed.
Again tie in points and the stress that can be applied to a redirect can really be misunderstood and underestimated.
 
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