The Games Customers Play

Tr33Climb3r said:
The ones that say they are giving you value by mentioning all the work their neighbors need done. But that's as far as they go.
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Ha ha ha. I know the type. I usually try to get them to tell me if they themselves originally suggested the work to said neighbor. If so, well, there you have it. Game over.

Sometimes the neighbor is immediately a good prospect, a lot of times its a gimmick the would be customer is deploying to get you to lower your price getting you to cede a group price for the work without there being a genuine possibility that the group work will actually occur. Additionally, your client may know that Sylvia next door is tight fisted and really doesn't give a hoot about getting any work done at all on her trees.

I like it when they want you to do add the neighbor's bid onto the bid you have going for them--you know, they'll give it to the neighbor that way. More often than not, its an occasion for all of the problems associated with "free" estimates (i.e. the "give away" tree inventory and informal plant disease appraisal/ tree risk assessment). Or better yet, a way to politely inform said neighbor of what she needs to do on her trees. "While your here(why don't you go ahead and tell Sylvia what she needs to do on her trees)."

You sometimes get them, but most often (I at least) don't. I think its because one of the neighbor's is usually not really pre-qualified, that is to say they are not sincere customers. If you can figure out if this is indeed what is going on then you can steer clear of problems.

You'll often see these kind of offerings by the neighborhood Queen Bee. She'll have her nose in everyone's business and be getting everyone "on board" to get their work done. Now, she can do good work for you and it can be a productive relationship--maybe other work will come of it, but you've got to be aware of something the Queen Bee has forgotten in her overweaning ambition: those are other peoples properties and the owner of those properties may not have the same drive or deep pockets as the Queen Bee. Take it or leave it, but be aware of her and her nature. These kinds of Queen Bee Games, have now been identified.
 
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Whether it's the promise of neighbor's work of more work on the property itself, until it's real it doesn't matter. Price any item that can stand alone at a price that reflects doing just that. Apply a "volume" discount if all the work is done and work out an in-between price for a partial list. We recently got stung on a job where the client cancelled the major work leaving us to do the work that was underpriced on the quote. A lesson for the salesperson.
 
treehumper said:
Apply a "volume" discount if all the work is done and work out an in-between price for a partial list
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This is exactly what we do now and have two contracts signed - if the other party doesn't sign a contract by the time we start the job, then they don't get the volume rate. It puts the ball in their court to pressure their neighbor and keeps me out of it.


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ward said:
The yards we work in might have at most 5-6 dog craps. I instruct the crew (even as I was instructed by my former bosses) to clean up the shits with a rake and shovel BEFORE the work begins. Most unfortunate to have this happen to one, but it could be seen as a kind of negligence on the part of the worker if he started working around a tree without a prior inspection and clean up of the area. Like my little boy who blames me for not pulling up his pants for him. To me its telling the customer that we can't pull our pants up for ourselves. If the yard were as deep in shit as a kennel, as some yards appear to be, then it seems like a reasonable charge, but that would be an outlier case and by no means the rule in my experience of our customer's yards. I don't wish to stop you from charging for this, to each his own. :) You did mention also, Steve, that it was primarily a scare tactic. I'll bet it works really well, too!
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While we will check for them and clean them up as part of our pre-work inspection, the client is obligated to make sure the work area is free of any such stuff and they usually meet the requirement. While we don't say we will charge for clean up if we do it, we do state that if the area is not free when we arrive for work then we will not work and they will be responsible for a rescheduling fee of up to 20% of the total bid. Also, if we encounter any crap while working and it contaminates our ropes or other gear they will be responsible for paying decontamination fees.

Seems to work as we haven't had any crap on our gear, or in the yard, in a very long time and nobody has had to pay to reschedule or decon our gear. That said, we have on occasion had a client call the night before we were to arrive and ask to reschedule (no penalty for that) because they hadn't cleaned their yard.

Sometimes, though, we run into a yard (like a kennel) that is just way outta control, like you can't even move without stepping in crap. Those we triple bid or simply refer them elsewhere because we know it ain't gonna get cleaned up.
 
Real Estate Games occur around the buying and selling of property. There are two sides to the real estate game: buyer and seller. The buyer's interest is in getting a free quote on tree work around the property in order to lower the seller's price by suggesting all sorts of work that the new buyer is going to have to put in to the property. Sometimes work follows from this, but a lot of times the buyer's only interest is in lowering the sale price not in scheduling tree work. Once the sale goes through and the escrow funds are released, the buyer will often enjoy the funds in other ways and not do the work they were intending to do before the sale. Once the property is in their hands, the "necessary" work looks a little less necessary. On the other hand, the seller's interest consists in preventing the buyer from asking for too much for supposed tree work on the property. They really want to know what a reasonable price would be for all of the tree work said buyer is going to try to insist on either having done before the sale or compensation for the work to be done after the sale. In both cases, one must be on guard lest one give away free estimates where there is little possibility of actually doing the work (in the next 6 months, say). Few are those places in which the arborist is so ill served by the free estimate paradigm as on those occasions in which quotes are given free of charge to those in the process of buying or selling real estate. Be sure to charge for this service or insist upon signing a work contract on the spot before giving a free estimate here.
 
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Ward, that reminds me of one I ran into involving a rental property. A large tree falls down on a lake front rental property. The tenant tells the land lord that for a reduction of their rent (not sure the exact amount) he will take care of the tree himself. Land lord is not sure about the cost of removal, so he gets a tree company to give a free quote so that he has something to compare the tenant's offer with. Well of course the tree company will charge more, so the Land lord goes with the tenants offer.
 
I avoid the real estate games by not doing free estimates. That way, even if they were using me to negotiate their home price, we all walk away a winner.


love
nick
 
We get that all the time - people asking for quotes so they can lower the home price, get rent lowered, figure out how much their work is valued at, or how much their buddy who has a saw, a truck, and a ladder is worth. I'd say about half lead to actual work after they find out they can't handle it or get hurt. Sometimes I get more out of it when a fence is wrecked and some landscaping was destroyed.


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treehumper said:
Whether it's the promise of neighbor's work of more work on the property itself, until it's real it doesn't matter. Price any item that can stand alone at a price that reflects doing just that. Apply a "volume" discount if all the work is done and work out an in-between price for a partial list. We recently got stung on a job where the client cancelled the major work leaving us to do the work that was underpriced on the quote. A lesson for the salesperson.
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This happened to me too. I learned my lesson. I wrote an estimate and line itemized every tree. Then, the homeowner picked a part my estimate and picked out the least expensive stuff and leaving out the real meat of the job. I will not set out itemized prices on smaller jobs. I will however, group all the work together and give a price of say 2500.00 Then, add that if all work is accepted and done at the same time then a 15% reduction will be applied to the price.
 
So, that's a pretty good closing rate, 50%. Besides, walking into any sales situation is rife with all those risks. Sure, charge for the estimate with a guarantee that the cost will be deducted from the cost of the work or, just charge out right. One could work through an RE agent that they know and trust. Said agent knows the value of curb appeal and the games buyers and home inspectors play and can show the vendor (that's what a seller of RE is called) what the value of them doing the work beforehand marketing the property will be. Another approach could be to educate one's self on the concept of curb appeal and the value of "staging" a property both inside and out. Explain to them how their very valuable home will sit longer on the market and sell at a lower price than their RE rivals in the neighborhood thus costing them thousands.

You are business people first, tree people second. Learn your business craft as well if not better than your tree craft, especially selling.
 
ROYCE said:
This happened to me too. I learned my lesson. I wrote an estimate and line itemized every tree. Then, the homeowner picked a part my estimate and picked out the least expensive stuff and leaving out the real meat of the job. I will not set out itemized prices on smaller jobs. I will however, group all the work together and give a price of say 2500.00 Then, add that if all work is accepted and done at the same time then a 15% reduction will be applied to the price.
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The drawback to that is a shrewd negotiator will then counter with a response that it's too expensive and what would item A or B cost if they did just that. Next thing they're breaking down your quote to an itemized list that leaves you having to shuffle the deck. Of course, if you've priced it all at premiums that would allow each to stand alone then it won't matter.

The key is to know your pricing model and to be sure to educate the client as to the real costs to them if they choose to go a la carte.
 
We've had property management companies do something similar - we'll get a call to give an estimate on xyz at the end of their fiscal year. Sometimes it'll be a handful of properties at once. It is always to create an annual budget and only 1 or 2 properties result in actual work. It is usually the lowest quoted bids. So now we just price all trees at a premium and charge a consultation fee with monthly inflation rate for the quote if the work isn't done ASAP.

The reason we had to start doing it that way is the office requesting the quote can only give the ok for work under $500. The larger bids go to a Los Angeles office. It's hard for me to sell a bid to a suit dealing with thousands of bids and comparing apples to zebras across spread sheets. Also, their are a lot of low ballers and competition down south who work for peanuts. Prices seem much more fair up north.

Even the local office gets super frustrated with the process because some of the trees are high risk and that message doesn't make it to the decision makers.

Now we charge $100 per commercial or investment property for the estimate / consultation and 3% monthly increase on the bid.


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Be sure to send pictures of high risk trees in the email. 1000 words to better illustrate the need, and facilitate the sale of the tree work.

If the 'suit' signs off on leaving a bid on the table, and poop hits the ventilator, their name is attached.
 
NorCalBrock said:
We've had property management companies do something similar - we'll get a call to give an estimate on xyz at the end of their fiscal year. Sometimes it'll be a handful of properties at once. It is always to create an annual budget and only 1 or 2 properties result in actual work. It is usually the lowest quoted bids. So now we just price all trees at a premium and charge a consultation fee with monthly inflation rate for the quote if the work isn't done ASAP.

The reason we had to start doing it that way is the office requesting the quote can only give the ok for work under $500. The larger bids go to a Los Angeles office. It's hard for me to sell a bid to a suit dealing with thousands of bids and comparing apples to zebras across spread sheets. Also, their are a lot of low ballers and competition down south who work for peanuts. Prices seem much more fair up north.

Even the local office gets super frustrated with the process because some of the trees are high risk and that message doesn't make it to the decision makers.

Now we charge $100 per commercial or investment property for the estimate / consultation and 3% monthly increase on the bid.


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Have you made direct contact with the suits to set up a presentation that will educate them on how to understand the work behind the numbers? What you're dealing with is a classic sales problem, selling to the gatherer not the decision maker. When there's multiple players it's important to know who each one is and the role they play in the process. Step outside the usual process and connect. Be forthright about it. Ask for a meeting to gain a better understanding of their needs and buying motivations. They're business people so act as such and they'll respect you for it. We deal with a client that can only approve quotes to a certain amount. So, we never do any work for more than that. It breaks up the work over the year and makes for a better relationship. He knows our work and can count on us to get it done right.

The only way to get your message to the decision makers is to deliver it yourself.
 
Speaking of games customers play, I have one that owes me 1100 clams that I may need to take to small claims court. The thing is, she filed a bogus claim with my insurance that the adjuster found to be false and the woman has her lawyer boyfriend threatening litigation because they're demanding 3 grand.

Here's the dilemma, the matter is not solved with my insurance so if I demand payment ahead of resolution they may lean harder on my insurance. But they still owe me the money.
You guys think I should wait or just send a certified letter now saying "fuck you pay me"?
 
I say call your insurance company every day to get that squared away and case closed. That way when you go to small claims when they bring it up, you can mention that it was found to be a fraudulent claim.


love
nick
 
I'd say, let them lean on your insurance company. Last time I checked.. insurance companies are all grown up and have competent attorneys of their own on retainer. Let her boyfriend/attorney pony up fees and march into court with a frivolous claim. If you treat their smokescreen like it's made of concrete, then for all intents and purposes..it is concrete. Remember, for a lot of these bozos, justice delayed....is justice.
 
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