The Games Customers Play

I've had my own tree business for 3 years now. Nothing big. F-550 chip truck, Bandit 200xp, Boxer 427 w/ BMG, and small Rayco stump grinder. 3 part time guys. Don't set the world on fire, but
it's growing. 100% in 2014 & 41% in 2015. I own all equipment--no debt. No advertising; just word of mouth. I probably should, but I don't do contracts. I've only done 4 or 5 contracts for customers who asked for them. I've never had a non-payment, and only a few that were late.

So I go to a referral from a neighbor. His fishing buddy. Both of them are Iranian--I'm not racist, but anyone who denies that they have a different way of doing things is just blind. And they're tighter than bark on a tree. Anyway, he's got one dead red oak (30" dbh), and one dying red oak (28" dbh) almost grown together, sandwiched between the neighbor's fence, a large koi pond, the house, and an embankment. No way to get a bucket truck in the back yard--goes down to water. Could maybe bring a crane in the front yard & lift everything over the house. I give him a quote and don't hear back. I never gave it another thought.

He calls 3 weeks later and wants to meet me on the property & maybe we can "work" something out. It's not far from my house--I go, and he also wants a small oak in the front yard removed, a crepe myrtle trimmed, and the canopy raised on a yellow pine. I give him another price. We do the "middle-east haggle" and finally shake hands. I scheduled it a week out.

2 days later he calls. Asks me,

"How would you feel if I have someone else do the job? What happened is, this guy told me that he would do the trees, but didn't show for 2 weeks. He called yesterday and said he could be here Saturday. His price was $700 below yours."

I told him I would feel the same way that he would if someone was trying to take food off of his table. I told him that when a dishonest tree guy didn't keep his word, he called an honest tree guy. I told him that to back out of our agreement would be rewarding bad behavior; paying off my honesty with dishonesty. And I told him a lot more, because, I was ticked off.

He ended up sticking to our agreement. But he was critical of the job we did from start to finish even though we did an excellent job & at a compromised price. I know that 700 bucks kept gnawing at him. Sort of made me wish we had let the hack land a few large chunks in his fish pool. At the end of it all, I was glad that he was an honorable man. He must have known in his gut that switching would have been wrong. Maybe he just called me to get the right words to say to the low-baller; or just confirmation that his gut was steering him straight.

This is not necessarily a game the customer played, but rather, a complete lack of understanding that there are other inputs/factors besides Legal Tender. I know, I know, it's my responsibility to educate the customer. Try that with a partial language barrier, and an almost complete cultural divide.

There, that rant was still shorter than a few of yours Ward. I'm like you--99% of my customers love me, and I love them. But....
 
They play the game and you play. They're not our friends they are our customers. What does that mean? Someone paying a price for us to perform a job. He gripes you smile and point out that you did your job as per the contract. If there is something that wasn't done as per that, you'll see that it is. If the price isn't compromised then it's doable. Once long ago, an Iranian client told us how to answer the question, "Can you give me a better price?". How? Say, "No". Simple. Stand you're ground with him and he'll respect it. If you've done your job in educating the client as to the value of your services to them, then they'll get it.

Cheers!
 
I've had my own tree business for 3 years now. Nothing big. F-550 chip truck, Bandit 200xp, Boxer 427 w/ BMG, and small Rayco stump grinder. 3 part time guys. Don't set the world on fire, but
it's growing. 100% in 2014 & 41% in 2015. I own all equipment--no debt. No advertising; just word of mouth. I probably should, but I don't do contracts. I've only done 4 or 5 contracts for customers who asked for them. I've never had a non-payment, and only a few that were late.

So I go to a referral from a neighbor. His fishing buddy. Both of them are Iranian--I'm not racist, but anyone who denies that they have a different way of doing things is just blind. And they're tighter than bark on a tree. Anyway, he's got one dead red oak (30" dbh), and one dying red oak (28" dbh) almost grown together, sandwiched between the neighbor's fence, a large koi pond, the house, and an embankment. No way to get a bucket truck in the back yard--goes down to water. Could maybe bring a crane in the front yard & lift everything over the house. I give him a quote and don't hear back. I never gave it another thought.

He calls 3 weeks later and wants to meet me on the property & maybe we can "work" something out. It's not far from my house--I go, and he also wants a small oak in the front yard removed, a crepe myrtle trimmed, and the canopy raised on a yellow pine. I give him another price. We do the "middle-east haggle" and finally shake hands. I scheduled it a week out.

2 days later he calls. Asks me,

"How would you feel if I have someone else do the job? What happened is, this guy told me that he would do the trees, but didn't show for 2 weeks. He called yesterday and said he could be here Saturday. His price was $700 below yours."

I told him I would feel the same way that he would if someone was trying to take food off of his table. I told him that when a dishonest tree guy didn't keep his word, he called an honest tree guy. I told him that to back out of our agreement would be rewarding bad behavior; paying off my honesty with dishonesty. And I told him a lot more, because, I was ticked off.

He ended up sticking to our agreement. But he was critical of the job we did from start to finish even though we did an excellent job & at a compromised price. I know that 700 bucks kept gnawing at him. Sort of made me wish we had let the hack land a few large chunks in his fish pool. At the end of it all, I was glad that he was an honorable man. He must have known in his gut that switching would have been wrong. Maybe he just called me to get the right words to say to the low-baller; or just confirmation that his gut was steering him straight.

This is not necessarily a game the customer played, but rather, a complete lack of understanding that there are other inputs/factors besides Legal Tender. I know, I know, it's my responsibility to educate the customer. Try that with a partial language barrier, and an almost complete cultural divide.

There, that rant was still shorter than a few of yours Ward. I'm like you--99% of my customers love me, and I love them. But....
Interesting situation and nicely handled. Good to be firm about what you do work for and what you won't do. I've been there before with the same kind of guys. I think there is a cultural divide problem here. It's important not to stereotype groups or to treat individuals as though they are mere instances of the group stereotype. I once finished a job for an Asian woman who paid me $450 in cash for the $650 work we contracted and did for her and tried shooing me away from her door saying this was for the work. It seemed like a strategy/game to me then. Did she think I couldn't count? Or perhaps that I would bow my head in deference taking what I was given, grateful for having served the members of a higher caste? Was this a cultural game or an individual? I cannot say, but whatever was driving that misunderstanding of contract law and the bundle of protections that contractors have in our society, I must admit we are (as a labouring class) better off without. I think there must be a very plastic sense of contract in a lot of bartering/bargaining cultures. Thankfully we have the law to protect us.
 
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Do Americans just nod and accept the price? Hmmm... not been my experience. Dealing in a service business that isn't limited to any one culture we as providers need to understand the cultural nuances and behaviours we will encounter when dealing with a multicultural society. Myself, I categorize clients by the behaviors the exhibit. Sure there are expectations when I don't know a client based on many demographic factors, ethnicity being only one of them.

It's what makes the work interesting in another dimension.
 
Do Americans just nod and accept the price? Hmmm... not been my experience. Dealing in a service business that isn't limited to any one culture we as providers need to understand the cultural nuances and behaviours we will encounter when dealing with a multicultural society. Myself, I categorize clients by the behaviors the exhibit. Sure there are expectations when I don't know a client based on many demographic factors, ethnicity being only one of them.

It's what makes the work interesting in another dimension.
Just to be clear--I give a bid to everyone who asks for one. My price criteria is my standard regardless of who that person is.

But, we also work in a very culturally diverse area. In short order, you see patterns emerge. You used the word "qualify" in one of your previous posts Treehumper. That's part of making a living. I've wasted my time on several occasions with particular ethnic groups. Old saying--"Fool me once, shame on you; Fool me twice, shame on me." I'm not too dumb to see patterns when they are blatant, and I'm not too politically correct to try and act like they don't exist.
 
Agreed. I go in with the knowledge of those potential stereotypical behaviors and do the qualifying with that in mind. I come from Toronto and live in North Jersey both very ethnically diverse communities where I could go very hungry if I didn't at least work through the qualifying stage. Those patterns just inform the strategy in my approach. I guess I prefer to work the opportunity than to brush it off due to these patterns. Stating that I'm not the cheapest nor will I just go along with whatever it is they're asking for (in a tactful manner) often provides me with the responses I need to determine whether I'm going to be wasting my time.

My cat rescues are a good example. I always tell them up front that I charge and how much it is (not cheap according to some), if they balk then I'll suggest they give it some more time and let me know if they want me to come. With tree work much comes from the marketing I do through ECs and Shade Tree Commission presentations. They know where I stand and if they like what they heard they'll call or refer. It's about building the value proposition for that particular client.
 
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My favourite is one I call "The Farmer's Daughter".

Goes like this....homeowner accuses you of flirting with his cute daughter who is home from college for the summer. You deny it (wether you were flirting or not), and he then accuses you of calling his daughter ugly. He states the only way to appease his injured honour is for me to trim a few cedars that weren't originally included.
Sighhh.......so off I go and trim the cedars while said cute daughter watches innocently, but with an almost undetectable air of mischief in her eyes...


***ok, so this may or may not have ever happened :) ***
 
My favourite is one I call "The Farmer's Daughter".

Goes like this....homeowner accuses you of flirting with his cute daughter who is home from college for the summer. You deny it (wether you were flirting or not), and he then accuses you of calling his daughter ugly. He states the only way to appease his injured honour is for me to trim a few cedars that weren't originally included.
Sighhh.......so off I go and trim the cedars while said cute daughter watches innocently, but with an almost undetectable air of mischief in her eyes...


***ok, so this may or may not have ever happened :) ***
And no sooner do you finish those cedars, than it begins to rain.....sooooo hard that you can't leave, and have to stay the night in the garage...sleeping in the backseat of the clients' restored Desoto...........
 
My favourite is one I call "The Farmer's Daughter".

Goes like this....homeowner accuses you of flirting with his cute daughter who is home from college for the summer. You deny it (wether you were flirting or not), and he then accuses you of calling his daughter ugly. He states the only way to appease his injured honour is for me to trim a few cedars that weren't originally included.
Sighhh.......so off I go and trim the cedars while said cute daughter watches innocently, but with an almost undetectable air of mischief in her eyes...


***ok, so this may or may not have ever happened :) ***

I think there is an even broader class of games of which your particular 'farmer's daughter' game is an instance. We might call these quid pro quo games, and they have the following generic form. Customer suggests that there is an additional something that is in need of addressing if not rectification by you, such as would be resolved in adding on free services to 'make it right' again. There is some fine line here between good customer service and getting gamed. Recently had a client suggest that I needed to draft a note (a mini report for a neighbor) for free for her. I think she was thinking that since she'd already given me so much work she could ask for this favor. I gave it to her, of course, and did not feel gamed.
 
I think there is an even broader class of games of which your particular 'farmer's daughter' game is an instance. We might call these quid pro quo games, and they have the following generic form. Customer suggests that there is an additional something that is in need of addressing if not rectification by you, such as would be resolved in adding on free services to 'make it right' again. There is some fine line here between good customer service and getting gamed. Recently had a client suggest that I needed to draft a note (a mini report for a neighbor) for free for her. I think she was thinking that since she'd already given me so much work she could ask for this favor. I gave it to her, of course, and did not feel gamed.
Sometimes it depends who's doing the playing as well. We work for many landscape companies with a good relationship. So if they add on a tiny extra or ask for something written up quick we often through it in because they bring us business with loyalty so that should be rewarded IMO with small favours.
Obviously they know anything more than that is an extra. Same goes with the local township and golf courses we work for. If they are annually some of your top clients. You go the extra mile. IMO.
But the homeowners that call around try and low ball you cut off the tax get free extras as far as they can push it and won't call again. Then yes charge these guys, fairly and honestly but if they want more they pay.
 
Interesting situation and nicely handled. Good to be firm about what you do work for and what you won't do. I've been there before with the same kind of guys. I think there is a cultural divide problem here. It's important not to stereotype groups or to treat individuals as though they are mere instances of the group stereotype. I once finished a job for an Asian woman who paid me $450 in cash for the $650 work we contracted and did for her and tried shooing me away from her door saying this was for the work. It seemed like a strategy/game to me then. Did she think I couldn't count? Or perhaps that I would bow my head in deference taking what I was given, grateful for having served the members of a higher caste? Was this a cultural game or an individual? I cannot say, but whatever was driving that misunderstanding of contract law and the bundle of protections that contractors have in our society, I must admit we are (as a labouring class) better off without. I think there must be a very plastic sense of contract in a lot of bartering/bargaining cultures. Thankfully we have the law to protect us.

Did you cave in and take the 450 or what? :rayos:
 
Did you cave in and take the 450 or what? :rayos:
She admitted it to be a clerical error after having been shown the paperwork. All paid up. Happy customer no complaints.

I do think that there are cultures that have a very dim view of labor. India, for example, has/had a caste system which essentially puts physical work at the lower echelons. Lots of cultures denigrate physical workers as slaves of one stripe or another. Its not surprising that those prevailing attitudes would be retained when they are dealing with workers in North America.
 
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She admitted it to be a clerical error after having been shown the paperwork. All paid up. Happy customer no complaints.

I do think that there are cultures that have a very dim view of labor. India, for example, has/had a caste system which essentially puts physical work at the lower echelons. Lots of cultures denigrate physical workers as slaves of one stripe or another. Its not surprising that those prevailing attitudes would be retained when they are dealing with workers in North America.
And this just underscores the reason we need to sell knowledge and expertise instead of labor. Understand our clients' value proposition.
 
Been getting this lately via email through website:

Person, business, or city killed my tree. Can you give me a quote on the value, to remove, and plant a new tree. This is the case for insurance claims as well.

No address or phone number is left, and they just want a detailed bid - site unseen.

I say - Thank you for contacting us. We do not provide free quotes for disputes or tree / damage evaluation. If you have a claim number and insurance contact, we will gladly work directly with them. We charge $125 for the hour site visit and $95 an hour to prepare the quote.

That usually stops them from using us to get free evidence or get a big check to hire someone who doesn't play by the same rules and business operating costs.

However, I've had this one guy who refuses to talk or meet with me, but keeps requesting a quote by email and threatens to write bad reviews online if I don't provide requested info. [emoji35]


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Been getting this lately via email through website:

Person, business, or city killed my tree. Can you give me a quote on the value, to remove, and plant a new tree. This is the case for insurance claims as well.

No address or phone number is left, and they just want a detailed bid - site unseen.

I say - Thank you for contacting us. We do not provide free quotes for disputes or tree / damage evaluation. If you have a claim number and insurance contact, we will gladly work directly with them. We charge $125 for the hour site visit and $95 an hour to prepare the quote.

That usually stops them from using us to get free evidence or get a big check to hire someone who doesn't play by the same rules and business operating costs.

However, I've had this one guy who refuses to talk or meet with me, but keeps requesting a quote by email and threatens to write bad reviews online if I don't provide requested info. [emoji35]


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I can't speak to this scam. Sounds like a variation of the text message we've all been getting about the "Hello this is Jack. I will like to know if you do tree service do you accept credit card?"

What is interesting here to me is the idea of threat of negative review if you don't do something for them. This might be the greatest game of all in the age of online reviews of business. I have no other way to describe the Threat of Negative Review Game than as a form of blackmail. This game is to be distinguished from cases where you genuinely warrant negative review. Those are part of the business that we all agree to play by being in business in the digital age. Sometimes got to take one on the chops if you mucked something up. But what makes this a game in our sense is that it can be used to allow customer to ask for more than the contract or agreement stipulates, or to pay less, or some such thing. Had a customer claim that when she called back to accept the bid, I had ceded her an additional 10% off the 10% coupon. I had never assented to this, nor would I have. She threatened a negative review if I didn't concede that I'd given her the additional 10%. I countered that I would vigorously defend our actions and policy, etc. Eventually resolved the matter where we split the difference. I did it to be a "good company" in her eyes (certainly not my own)....the thought that the impacts of a negative review could have for our company led me to accept her swindling reason and settle. Just having to respond to it and the potential complications of that led me to settle even though I am right. In the age of online reviews, there are few disincentives for the threatener of false negative review and there is a perverse incentive to proceed. The small business can be hurt by these kinds of things.

Due to the damaging effect such a frivolous, negative online review could have on your company's business, it might make sense to inform him that if he proceeds you will turn the matter over to law enforcement to investigate as fraud or blackmail. I'm sure there's a crime there somewhere.
 
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If it was worth the time and effort to resist, I would. We live in a rural area, so we don't get many reviews to begin with. 1 person can have a big impact on our online reputation. The thing about online information and business is that is highly unregulated and there isn't much recourse - there is even a cottage industry that makes a killing repairing online reputations. I've worked hard to build a good reputation and want to keep it that way.

I'm just going to do the bid to be done with it. They just want a price to use in court or get an insurance check. They'll never hire us anyway, nor would I work for them after the threat.

It's got me in a pickle, so I'm going to think about it until Friday.




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I typically reply to those type of clients like this: "Having reviewed and archived your correspondence, and giving the matter due consideration, I don't feel that we are well suited for a client/contractor relationship. I am therefore declining to tender a proposal. I'm certain you'll find a contractor better suited to your needs...regards..etc" cc: File

That lets them know you're done with them, and that any correspondence they've sent thus far, and any to come in the future, will be a part of your rebuttal in the event they want to waste more of their time writing a bad review.

The best part is that you'll generally wind up getting referrals from their friends and family, after they talk trash about you, your stock will rise among the people who know them (and what a jerk they are) best.

You can't lose firing bottom-feeder prospects.
 
I wouldn't capitulate. Tell them, that you're still going to decline and if they feel that it warrants a bad review then so be it. End of subject. The point of the threat is to compel you to act to their benefit. If you don't they'll not proceed. It's not about being vindictive, it's about manipulating you.

Don't play the game.
 
I wouldn't capitulate. Tell them, that you're still going to decline and if they feel that it warrants a bad review then so be it. End of subject. The point of the threat is to compel you to act to their benefit. If you don't they'll not proceed. It's not about being vindictive, it's about manipulating you.

Don't play the game.
I agree it takes two parties to play this game. Simply don't dance with this fool, say that he gives you a bad review after you jump through his hoops? Or even worse you are giving him all the control and power in the situation.

If he actually does give you a bad review, it's a easy rebuttal to say I never had anything to do with this guy. The more you deal with him the harder it will be to prove you didn't do anything wrong.
 
I can't speak to this scam. Sounds like a variation of the text message we've all been getting about the "Hello this is Jack. I will like to know if you do tree service do you accept credit card?"

What is interesting here to me is the idea of threat of negative review if you don't do something for them. This might be the greatest game of all in the age of online reviews of business. I have no other way to describe the Threat of Negative Review Game than as a form of blackmail. This game is to be distinguished from cases where you genuinely warrant negative review. Those are part of the business that we all agree to play by being in business in the digital age. Sometimes got to take one on the chops if you mucked something up. But what makes this a game in our sense is that it can be used to allow customer to ask for more than the contract or agreement stipulates, or to pay less, or some such thing. Had a customer claim that when she called back to accept the bid, I had ceded her an additional 10% off the 10% coupon. I had never assented to this, nor would I have. She threatened a negative review if I didn't concede that I'd given her the additional 10%. I countered that I would vigorously defend our actions and policy, etc. Eventually resolved the matter where we split the difference. I did it to be a "good company" in her eyes (certainly not my own)....the thought that the impacts of a negative review could have for our company led me to accept her swindling reason and settle. Just having to respond to it and the potential complications of that led me to settle even though I am right. In the age of online reviews, there are few disincentives for the threatener of false negative review and there is a perverse incentive to proceed. The small business can be hurt by these kinds of things.

Due to the damaging effect such a frivolous, negative online review could have on your company's business, it might make sense to inform him that if he proceeds you will turn the matter over to law enforcement to investigate as fraud or blackmail. I'm sure there's a crime there somewhere.


This is a scam. I get these too. Don't reply.
 

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