The Games Customers Play

[southsoundtree01]

Another one I run into is "the wittler". Client basically asks for a quote for pruning and/or removing every tree in their yard. Upon completion of the quote, they then ask how much I will reduce the total cost if we don't work on x trees. I usually try to accommodate the client at first but if they continue I politely decline to humor their requests. Something that helps reduce this problem is itemizing trees with their respective costs and giving the client a minimum amount you will work for. In my case I will not work for less than $300 unless it's my neighbor.

They need to spec the trees for me, or its a consultation.

 

[ward]

One that I've experienced first hand is The Renter.

Customer calls to have multiple trees removed from property and upon completion of the work either a) doesn't pay, claiming they are not the property owner and the company should take the bill to the land owner (who usually has no idea that trees have been removed from their property) or b) customer pays, but property owner later finds out about the trees being removed and demands reparations for devaluing their property. Either way it causes quite the headache.

I think that Renter-Owner Games deserve classification as a genus, rather than a species of games. I can think of a number of them off hand: renter commits to owner paying for the work; owner denying renter was authorized to contract the work; renter paying for work which owner didn't authorize but forcing you to wait til he gets compensated by the owner who is refusing to pay; owner denying they agreed to let you contract with the renter even though he told you as much, etc., etc.

I'd like to hear further instance of the type with the aim of better classifying them. On a sidenote, I usually only work with owners and never renters due to the complications. Caveat emptor!

 

[Steve Connally]

Don't forget to have the "dog shit clause" written in. I had one on my contracts. Line item cost of $225 to clean up animal feces/disposal prior to work being started. My only error was stating the customer had to make a reasonable effort to dispose of the feces in the work area. Reasonable is only my definition therefore probably not enforceable. It was just a scare tactic and it worked.

 

[ward]

Don't forget to have the "dog shit clause" written in. I had one on my contracts. Line item cost of $225 to clean up animal feces/disposal prior to work being started. My only error was stating the customer had to make a reasonable effort to dispose of the feces in the work area. Reasonable is only my definition therefore probably not enforceable. It was just a scare tactic and it worked.

I'm undecided on whether a dog shit clause is more of a slap to the face of a client or a justifiable charge that can be forwarded as such. I don't know if a 'dog shit clause' is mere games playing by the arborist. I mean how many dog shits must be present per sq. ft for it to go into effect? Is the dogshit clause, in short, a bullshit clause?

 

[JontreeHI]

I'm undecided on whether a dog shit clause is more of a slap to the face of a client or a justifiable charge that can be forwarded as such. I don't know if a 'dog shit clause' is mere games playing by the arborist. I mean how many dog shits must be present per sq. ft for it to go into effect? Is the dogshit clause, in short, a bullshit clause?

Dog shit clause a must. Especially in portland, especially in winter
I won't work until work site is clean of dog shit, so might as well charge for it.
HOs-be respectful, I will be in your yard, you know your dog shits 2x per day. Pick it up.
Or don't, and I will, but not for free.


Chris- ever get dog shit on your face?

 

[ward]

Dog shit clause a must. Especially in portland, especially in winter
I won't work until work site is clean of dog shit, so might as well charge for it.
HOs-be respectful, I will be in your yard, you know your dog shits 2x per day. Pick it up.
Or don't, and I will, but not for free.


Chris- ever get dog shit on your face?

Fair enough. And if you can get it into the contract beforehand then that is okay--I ca see no games playing. Even you would admit, however, that if you tried adding a charge to her account at settling up time on account of a "dogshit clause" that she'd never agreed to in advance, you'd face a stiff breeze to say the least. This is unlike other charges, such as a charge to cover the cost of damage to chains from cutting up wood with unlocated metal objects in it for which you could potentially ask for remuneration. A dogshit clause is a stretch...perhaps only in Portland would such a thing be possible.

 

[JontreeHI]

Too true, can't do it without fair notice. It's true that in LO and West linn etc, you're up against some vague lot lines. Fences don't lie in SE! Bu you're trees are often bigger/ cooler.
Anyway, carry on, just had to chime in re shit.
Hope you're well Chris!

 

[Steve Connally]

It was always in the contract and I explained it to the customer. Have you had feces all over your hands from dragging brush and feeding the chipper. What about having it all over your ropes and gear. Technically it is illegal to dispose of large amounts in a garbage can as it is a bio hazard. I think if you checked the local department of Heath you would find numerous risks of exposure to animal feces. Not withstanding my guys or I weren't paid enough to have crap all over them all the time. If I wanted that exposure I'd be a plumber. You can't justify the exposure to your employees and not have sanitizing measures and a way for them to Decon before getting in personal vehicles. Any reasonable customer would understand. Would you let your children play in a yard full of dog crap? I wouldn't. Unless of course you don't allow your guys to eat with their hands at work.

 

[ward]

They need to spec the trees for me, or its a consultation.

Customer may suggest she has one or two firs...upon inspection she has a whole stand that call out for work. She is curious about your findings and wants to know more....like a fool you cross your own principle....tell her more than she needs to know. I think these might be called Free Estimate Games.

 

[southsoundtree]

I hear that.

I ask them on the phone, "In a nutshell, what do you have going on?". Then, I ask them specific numbers. Then, I explain the difference between a Free Estimate (you tell me what you want done) and a Consult (I tell you what you want to know, no Estimating during the Consult, only off the clock, after the consult).

 

[ward]

I hear that.

I ask them on the phone, "In a nutshell, what do you have going on?". Then, I ask them specific numbers. Then, I explain the difference between a Free Estimate (you tell me what you want done) and a Consult (I tell you what you want to know, no Estimating during the Consult, only off the clock, after the consult).

I often find there is great variance between what my customer initially wants over the phone and what I will allow our guys to actually do to the trees. Educating the customer is a part of the process, shaping their understanding of what they truly need. This is not simply following their dictated notes. The free estimate thing always bleeds into some degree of consulting. BTW, I'd like to see our industry collectively do away with the "free estimate" paradigm altogether: it was a step down when we first started doing it and it has caused our currency amongst the general public to become debased.

 

[ward]

It was always in the contract and I explained it to the customer. Have you had feces all over your hands from dragging brush and feeding the chipper. What about having it all over your ropes and gear. Technically it is illegal to dispose of large amounts in a garbage can as it is a bio hazard. I think if you checked the local department of Heath you would find numerous risks of exposure to animal feces. Not withstanding my guys or I weren't paid enough to have crap all over them all the time. If I wanted that exposure I'd be a plumber. You can't justify the exposure to your employees and not have sanitizing measures and a way for them to Decon before getting in personal vehicles. Any reasonable customer would understand. Would you let your children play in a yard full of dog crap? I wouldn't. Unless of course you don't allow your guys to eat with their hands at work.

The yards we work in might have at most 5-6 dog craps. I instruct the crew (even as I was instructed by my former bosses) to clean up the shits with a rake and shovel BEFORE the work begins. Most unfortunate to have this happen to one, but it could be seen as a kind of negligence on the part of the worker if he started working around a tree without a prior inspection and clean up of the area. Like my little boy who blames me for not pulling up his pants for him. To me its telling the customer that we can't pull our pants up for ourselves. If the yard were as deep in shit as a kennel, as some yards appear to be, then it seems like a reasonable charge, but that would be an outlier case and by no means the rule in my experience of our customer's yards. I don't wish to stop you from charging for this, to each his own. You did mention also, Steve, that it was primarily a scare tactic. I'll bet it works really well, too!

 

[Stumped]

Another one I run into is "the wittler". Client basically asks for a quote for pruning and/or removing every tree in their yard. Upon completion of the quote, they then ask how much I will reduce the total cost if we don't work on x trees. I usually try to accommodate the client at first but if they continue I politely decline to humor their requests. Something that helps reduce this problem is itemizing trees with their respective costs and giving the client a minimum amount you will work for. In my case I will not work for less than $300 unless it's my neighbor.

Exactly what I do. I have run into this to many times. I itemize then put in a group discount. If they start to take off the list it cost more anyway.


TCIA has a great standard form to start with, it would be a great place to start. Before you talk to your lawyer.

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[Stumped]

"The Whittler"...very funny, I think I've met him. His cousin is called "the Chiseler" and they honed their technique together!

Seriously, here is another The Molalla Bid Game. I call it this as it is named after a town far on the outskirts of the metropolis. Its in the hinterlands. People don't often have a whole lot of money there, but they have big acreages. Customer calls you up to give a complete itemized quote on all of the trees on her 5 acre estate, detailing the priorities of things to be done and when. You diligently prepare it, knowing there is some uncertainty as to the outcome but convinced that duty requires you to complete your free estimate to the customer. You never hear from them again or, if you do, they mention that they don't have the money or will just do it themselves (the husband is an old logger). This is when a free quote becomes a give away tree evaluation/informal plant disease assessment/ tree inventory.

... or they hand your bid over to other companies to bid, because it is so nice and detailed...



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[Stumped]

Priceless Shed or Priceless Vase game

An already significantly damaged shed or mouldering terra cotta plant vase half in the ground becomes an item of great concern after damage is sustained during a removal. Collecting the bill, you undergo a penalty phase and are asked to compensate for unavoidable damage to already broken materials. This is not ordinary damage recompense you might pay for genuinely damaged objects: this is shakedown street. 'gotcha'.

Removal of Dead Pin Oak next to rotted shed.... sorry I use a lot of detail anymore and sometimes I am harsh, but I am straight forward. I also write... next to damaged gutter... dented siding...

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[KevinS]

Priceless Shed or Priceless Vase game

An already significantly damaged shed or mouldering terra cotta plant vase half in the ground becomes an item of great concern after damage is sustained during a removal. Collecting the bill, you undergo a penalty phase and are asked to compensate for unavoidable damage to already broken materials. This is not ordinary damage recompense you might pay for genuinely damaged objects: this is shakedown street. 'gotcha'.

If you show up to damage photograph it with the tree in the pic before you start

 

[KevinS]

Priceless Shed or Priceless Vase game

An already significantly damaged shed or mouldering terra cotta plant vase half in the ground becomes an item of great concern after damage is sustained during a removal. Collecting the bill, you undergo a penalty phase and are asked to compensate for unavoidable damage to already broken materials. This is not ordinary damage recompense you might pay for genuinely damaged objects: this is shakedown street. 'gotcha'.

If you show up to damage photograph it with the tree in the pic before you start

 

[KevinS]

Been there...it sucks.

Should this not fall on who ever signed the go ahead? That's why you make them sign

 

[KevinS]

I'm undecided on whether a dog shit clause is more of a slap to the face of a client or a justifiable charge that can be forwarded as such. I don't know if a 'dog shit clause' is mere games playing by the arborist. I mean how many dog shits must be present per sq. ft for it to go into effect? Is the dogshit clause, in short, a bullshit clause?

If it's enough to retread my boots smear my rope cover my hands and piss me off I pack the crew up and say we'll be back when they call and have the yard cleaned. I don't offer to scoop there shit ever that's on them

 

[Stumped]

If it's enough to retread my boots smear my rope cover my hands and piss me off I pack the crew up and say we'll be back when they call and have the yard cleaned. I don't offer to scoop there shit ever that's on them

No complaints from my crews. I just write has dogs on slip. If it's in the working area the guys automatically shovel it out of the way. Not walking away from a job over a little pooh!

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