The Games Customers Play

The people that charge for estimate time don't have "unskilled industry" attached to them. Plumbers, electricians, lawyers have to either have formal education or go through an apprentice program before they can practice on their own.
I believe the ISA Certified Arborist has such requirements (formal education/experience (i.e., "apprenticeship") of 3 years. That is on a par with plumbers, electricians, and (if you subtract the baccalaureate) lawyers in terms of time demand. To accurately assess and describe proper tree work takes a lot of acumen and experience. At least enough to charge $50 a visit, I would think. Until that point when the market catches up with my unimpeachable logic, I'll have to continue doling out free estimates, trying to reign in where they become all too consultory. :(
 
Bait, Wait, and Switch Games

In this class of games, the customer gives indication that they would like your service, but they delay and at the last minute go with a cheaper competitor's quote. This is not ordinary soliciting of bids and choosing a provider, sealing the contract. Here the customer has accepted the proposal but requires that you wait a lengthy period before the work is to be completed. She wants to be booked out 6 months in advance. In the meantime, she has you file tree removal permits with the city and get that part of it clear. When she finally gets the permit she becomes elusive and unavailable. At the last minute you discover that she has chosen another service contractor because you were "hard to get a hold of" or some other obviously untrue rationale.
 
So, in that instance was she just using you to get the permits? I don't really understand, because I thought the permit would belong to you, and another arb would need to get his own anyway? What is her motive here?

Tim

Ah, I just re-read it. SHE gets the permits. Got it now. Nevermind. What a pisser.
 
Is there any way to get them to commit to a contract before pulling a permit? Or is it such an easy thing to do that it is not worth worrying about?

If it takes a lot of time and trouble to pull a permit, maybe you should charge for that as a service in and of itself, payable in advance, if that is legal? In that way you would be compensated for your time and effort in this area, at least.

Tim
 
So, in that instance was she just using you to get the permits? I don't really understand, because I thought the permit would belong to you, and another arb would need to get his own anyway? What is her motive here?

Tim

Ah, I just re-read it. SHE gets the permits. Got it now. Nevermind. What a pisser.

Permit belongs to the tree service in Metro Denver. We apply for the permit with forestry, after they confirm our license with their forestry department they reach out to the homeowner to confirm they hired us to do the work, then they issue the permit to our company. After the work is done, we notify forestry and they do an inspection. We can't trim a city tree in Aurora on a homeowner property without a permit period.
 
This sounds like a good system, assuming the government folks are good at their jobs. It ensures that the homeowner isn't being scammed, because they're kept in the loop.

Inspections afterward provide a way to bring consequences to bear on tree companies that do harm to public property if they screw the job up.

Thanks for posting this.

Tim
 
We are not alone. These client game strategies are just that and applied in every business. Take a course in negotiating and you'll find many of them and how to counter them. That's how I spotted one in a previous career. It was a classic strategy. Once I understood the client's "game" I was able to play to a win but, more importantly a win-win (another negotiating strategy from the Harvard negotiating handbook, "Getting to Yes"). Don't be put off by people trying to get the best deal. Yes, it's amazingly wonderful when clients just nod and sign the contract while handing you their wallet. But, once again, your a business person first, tree guy second. Act like a business person. Know your competitive advantage over other companies in your area. Be prepared to explain the value in your service. Price each tree as if it's the only one your going to do then calculate a "volume discount" and show it on the estimate with an explanation. Be clear that their is a minimum cost to just show up so, taking one tree or a bunch out of the estimate will not result in a line for line price drop. If you are going to do something for free, show the cost or normal charge for it then apply the discount. By doing it this way they know it's VALUE! Be prepared to walk or you will never be able to win.

As for lot lines, you are the professional and this is part of our profession and thus you should know. Not being able to deal with this makes you, in the eyes of the law, either negligent or incompetent. Which one do you want it to be? Boundary trees are suspect, period. Ask for a survey–they'll usually have one since most mortgages require it–and if it's dated then presume the tree has grown onto the neighbor's side. Ask if they have discussed it with their neighbor. Let them know you'll also be wanting to talk with the neighbor since you may need to obtain permission to enter onto their property. This is similar to the city tree the client wants you to prune, remove or deal with somehow. Know what that town ordinance is. Around me, the easy way to tell is to measure 10' from the curb, in Ontario it was 33' from the center of the roadway. If the tree falls even partially in that it's to be considered a town/city tree and any restrictions apply. I've had to submit a request in writing to prune a tree and receive written approval. Client was happy I knew the law and help to facilitate their request. The town appreciated that a professional was doing the work and that they weren't going to be left dealing with the aftermath. The day I did the work, a neighbor saw me in the tree and called the town. The inspector rolled up, nodded and waved and continued on his merry way, all smiles.

Dog crap..... we'll clear away a few turds but do notify clients that they need to clean the yard prior to our arrival. Only once did I leave a job site due to an horrendous amount of it and a call to the client that we would only return once the yard was completely cleared of it. Yeah, 3 deep and nary a blade of grass to be seen.

Building bridges is much more useful than burning them...
I appreciate the point about itemizing all trees. This would have spared me the agony of the lot line problem, as I had just described it on the quote as the "group of firs" and we were on our day rate with with the client. The idea was to get as much done on them as we could while we were there and doing other things. Only a smaller percentage of our work is bid on a day rate basis on account of the extreme volume and complexity of work in certain yards. This is offered to our clients as a form of volume discounting, while it is also a way to allow some flexibility as time gets used up differentially, to allow us to switch towards certain trees in order to get the most done for the client. The problem is that it can lead to ambiguity and thus blame. Individualized pricing and demonstrating the discount on volume is clearly a better policy to avoid confusion. Thanks for pointing that out.

Battening down the hatches in the sense of preemptively having a lengthy sheet of exclusions and limitations of liablity on your contracts and knowing the limitations of your own estimating methods, especially with respect to how customers can take advantage of them is a good idea. Being exact in descriptions on bids by giving exact numbers to groups of trees (say, "7 firs" (or better "7 firs near dented shed") and not just "group of firs") will help as well.

While I suppose it is the arborist's responsibility to know where the lot line is, I usually assume the client already knows where that is and would not have me prune trees that are not on his property. I take it as ordinarily sufficient that his word is where the line is. I have never run afoul of the line in any of my estimates before and I have always based my understanding of where the line is by relying on the customer's own testimony until the ambiguous lot line game happened to me. While I agree that one can and should prepare in advance against any and all ambiguities that can turn into misunderstandings, I also recognize that one cannot fully batten down the hatches against all would be comers. Games playing can and does occur even for the hatch battener.

Unless the arborist may assume the homeowner is sufficiently knowledgeable and trustworthy about his lotlines to know which are his trees and which are his neighbors, there is no risk free way for him of working near them without crossing an unrealistically high burden to know where they exist. But since crossing unrealistically high burdens is not to be expected of ordinary tradesman in their practices, it follows that arborists should be allowed to accept the homeowner's word as authoritative and accept that work indicated by him as his property is his property and if he calls for work on a neighbor's tree and represents it as his own to the arborist he thereby transfers legal liability to himself in such matters. If the customer's word is insufficient for the arborist to begin work on trees in the vicinity of the lotline, then either there is some easily deployed handheld device (such as Trimble) that shows the estimator lot lines so he may know instantly in the field where this line is OR one must obtain a professional survey beforehand to know where the lot line is. Do trimble handheld devices have lot line overlays that allow the estimator to see them clearly to within 1 meter? Will it be easy to obtain software overlays for the property lotlines in 3 counties and 15 municipilaties for the device? Possibly not. I also think it would be too high a burden to expect the arborist to obtain a professional survey prior to commencing work on each occasion he worked near a lot line. Therefore, it would seem that the arborist is within his rights to assume that the owner portrays the trees to be worked on as his own and accepts liability for representing them to the arborist (rightly or wrongly) as such.

On a side note, all's well that end's well. The neighbor in the lot line issue is a former customer of ours. In order to "make it right" with him, I agreed to give him a deal on some tree work he needs. It turned into a win-win situation in the end, but it might not have...
 
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Alot of this can be avoided by charging a fee to meet with people. You jelly leg them out of the gate. You will eliminate 90% of the bs you are talking about. You will only be meeting with people that are serious. Also- we dont file permits without a fee.
 
We have several clauses on our contact... I am very good with talking to clients and being very clear.
Some people just love to play the game. So, when I see my partner/husband getting stressed or pissy... I had him a slip. And say of John Doe isn't paying because he claims he doesn't have the $. (So, why did he order the work?)

I wish I still had this picture. My husband loaded up the clients front yard with logs. Small opening to and from house... then carved $$$$ signs in ends of the logs on a Friday. By Monday we had not only 30 calls from the client ready to pay, but also from several tree guys who the cliebt tried calling and sayings he paid us in full and we wouldn't pick up the wood... do they really think we don't talk. If social media was around back then...

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We have several clauses on our contact... I am very good with talking to clients and being very clear.
Some people just love to play the game. So, when I see my partner/husband getting stressed or pissy... I had him a slip. And say of John Doe isn't paying because he claims he doesn't have the $. (So, why did he order the work?)

I wish I still had this picture. My husband loaded up the clients front yard with logs. Small opening to and from house... then carved $$$$ signs in ends of the logs on a Friday. By Monday we had not only 30 calls from the client ready to pay, but also from several tree guys who the cliebt tried calling and sayings he paid us in full and we wouldn't pick up the wood... do they really think we don't talk. If social media was around back then...

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Beautiful! When I am stressed about our accounts receivable, my husband and crew ask for the addresses so they can dump logs on their property. Never had to do it....but there are a few that we definitely could.
 
Alot of this can be avoided by charging a fee to meet with people. You jelly leg them out of the gate. You will eliminate 90% of the bs you are talking about. You will only be meeting with people that are serious. Also- we dont file permits without a fee.
Dan, I've been thinking about doing this for awhile. What's your experience with a. dropoff of customers who would have asked you to come out but for the absence of a free quote and b. success rate of the customers who are being charged a fee to meet?
 
We have several clauses on our contact... I am very good with talking to clients and being very clear.
Some people just love to play the game. So, when I see my partner/husband getting stressed or pissy... I had him a slip. And say of John Doe isn't paying because he claims he doesn't have the $. (So, why did he order the work?)

I wish I still had this picture. My husband loaded up the clients front yard with logs. Small opening to and from house... then carved $$$$ signs in ends of the logs on a Friday. By Monday we had not only 30 calls from the client ready to pay, but also from several tree guys who the cliebt tried calling and sayings he paid us in full and we wouldn't pick up the wood... do they really think we don't talk. If social media was around back then...

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Wow. Nice to have a husband on hand to whom you can give a slip of paper and he'll drop the load of logs right in their yard with carved $$$ signs! That's an accounts receivable department with teeth! I am not inclined to either husband or logs in the yard. Could open up a whole can of worms I'm not ready for. Sounds like it worked for you, though! Good on you!
 
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Dan, I've been thinking about doing this for awhile. What's your experience with a. dropoff of customers who would have asked you to come out but for the absence of a free quote and b. success rate of the customers who are being charged a fee to meet?
My question is how easy/hard is it to get your $50 paid, if they don't go with you?

"Kiss My Axe"
Associate degree in forestry from PSU Mont Alto
Certified Arborist
Owner/operator of Climb High Tree Service established in 2002
www.climbhightree.com
https://m.facebook.com/ClimbHighTreeService
https://www.youtube.com/user/climbhightree
https://www.youtube.com/user/2treekiller2
 
You hand them an invoice at the end, like any other business transaction. They pull out their checkbook, or hand you cash. Done. IME.

How many balked at me coming out for a few. A few. More of them would probably be low-bid customers than top-shelf customers.

When they insist on a free estimate, I ask them to specify the scope of work, and ask if they have a Request for Proposal or Request for Bid packet, especially for an HOA. They usually say what's that. I explain, Free Estimate...tell me what you want done, consultation/ Request for Proposal, $75/ hour, one hour minimum. If I run a Little long, so what? $75.
 
I appreciate the point about itemizing all trees. This would have spared me the agony of the lot line problem, as I had just described it on the quote as the "group of firs" and we were on our day rate with with the client. The idea was to get as much done on them as we could while we were there and doing other things. Only a smaller percentage of our work is bid on a day rate basis on account of the extreme volume and complexity of work in certain yards. This is offered to our clients as a form of volume discounting, while it is also a way to allow some flexibility as time gets used up differentially, to allow us to switch towards certain trees in order to get the most done for the client. The problem is that it can lead to ambiguity and thus blame. Individualized pricing and demonstrating the discount on volume is clearly a better policy to avoid confusion. Thanks for pointing that out.

Battening down the hatches in the sense of preemptively having a lengthy sheet of exclusions and limitations of liablity on your contracts and knowing the limitations of your own estimating methods, especially with respect to how customers can take advantage of them is a good idea. Being exact in descriptions on bids by giving exact numbers to groups of trees (say, "7 firs" (or better "7 firs near dented shed") and not just "group of firs") will help as well.

While I suppose it is the arborist's responsibility to know where the lot line is, I usually assume the client already knows where that is and would not have me prune trees that are not on his property. I take it as ordinarily sufficient that his word is where the line is. I have never run afoul of the line in any of my estimates before and I have always based my understanding of where the line is by relying on the customer's own testimony until the ambiguous lot line game happened to me. While I agree that one can and should prepare in advance against any and all ambiguities that can turn into misunderstandings, I also recognize that one cannot fully batten down the hatches against all would be comers. Games playing can and does occur even for the hatch battener.

Unless the arborist may assume the homeowner is sufficiently knowledgeable and trustworthy about his lotlines to know which are his trees and which are his neighbors, there is no risk free way for him of working near them without crossing an unrealistically high burden to know where they exist. But since crossing unrealistically high burdens is not to be expected of ordinary tradesman in their practices, it follows that arborists should be allowed to accept the homeowner's word as authoritative and accept that work indicated by him as his property is his property and if he calls for work on a neighbor's tree and represents it as his own to the arborist he thereby transfers legal liability to himself in such matters. If the customer's word is insufficient for the arborist to begin work on trees in the vicinity of the lotline, then either there is some easily deployed handheld device (such as Trimble) that shows the estimator lot lines so he may know instantly in the field where this line is OR one must obtain a professional survey beforehand to know where the lot line is. Do trimble handheld devices have lot line overlays that allow the estimator to see them clearly to within 1 meter? Will it be easy to obtain software overlays for the property lotlines in 3 counties and 15 municipilaties for the device? Possibly not. I also think it would be too high a burden to expect the arborist to obtain a professional survey prior to commencing work on each occasion he worked near a lot line. Therefore, it would seem that the arborist is within his rights to assume that the owner portrays the trees to be worked on as his own and accepts liability for representing them to the arborist (rightly or wrongly) as such.

On a side note, all's well that end's well. The neighbor in the lot line issue is a former customer of ours. In order to "make it right" with him, I agreed to give him a deal on some tree work he needs. It turned into a win-win situation in the end, but it might not have...

Good to hear it worked out!

Like most things that can go sideways on us, it doesn't happen often. That's the up and downside of it. Because of it's infrequency we ignore or pay limited attention to it. But when it does go wrong it's a major PITA. Having a load of clauses may cover many aspects of the potential liabilities we could come up against, it'll never cover all. Trimble does have some great tools but the limit is in the cost for most small businesses. Assumptions are killers. We need to question their validity before we put stock into them.
 
@ ward&c limb high tree. The only problem with charging for estimates is that people will blow you off. This can be resolved with taking a credit card over the phone. In terms if fall out. We are always booked 4-6weeks out. It just allows you to spend more time with serious people. Its not perfect but it definetly helps. You can always drop it when your slow. But i wouldnt.
 
@ ward&c limb high tree. The only problem with charging for estimates is that people will blow you off. This can be resolved with taking a credit card over the phone. In terms if fall out. We are always booked 4-6weeks out. It just allows you to spend more time with serious people. Its not perfect but it definetly helps. You can always drop it when your slow. But i wouldnt.
Couple of questions if I might. What was your customer call drop off (as a percentage of leads from all sources (advertising, word of mouth, next door neighbor to work being done, etc) once you implemented the charge? 1/3, 2/3...what # seems roughly correct? Second question: of the existing leads that did accept the buy-in charge, what was your success rate with these as a percentage of the total bids given?

Where I am going with this is the following. Suppose that your success rate (booking success on initial quotes) is 33% of customers to whom "free quotes" are given. If even 2/3 of those crowd disappeared because of the estimate charge, but you were booking 90% of those that did call, I suspect you would save yourself a great deal of headache and time in advance, even though you are netting that much fewer out of the field. You are spending that much less time and are more succesful when you do. That's what I am hoping will happen!
 
While the numbers may not be so clear I'm sure once you run the cost benefit analysis it'll come out as a positive. This would of course being contingent on the estimator actually placing a cost on their time.
 
Alot of this can be avoided by charging a fee to meet with people. You jelly leg them out of the gate. You will eliminate 90% of the bs you are talking about. You will only be meeting with people that are serious. Also- we dont file permits without a fee.
A fee, with a time limit. Say $20, less than 30 minutes for an estimate.

I call it a consultation when they can't spec the job, within reason. I may go over an hour and not charge more, but they know up front that they are expecting $75/ first hour. They come more prepared, and have given more thought to the project in advance.

A lot of people want you to figure it out with them as they go, at a free bid.
 

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