Tapered Hinge: Diar(y)rhea of a thread gone wrong and left un-moderated

[Mowerr]

YEAH!

 

[Jem4417]

Call how you read it how you want but every tree tells a story and to tear someone apart from a picture of a stump that they repeatedly say was going to be out of the ordinary is dismissive. You talk as if this Daniel is 22 posting his first year of sub contract experiences. I guarantee he’d enhance 95% of jobsites in this industry. I’m not on the level of anyone on this site but I’d put him toe to toe with anyone “at the stump” because he will explain his logic in detail everytime

 

[Mowerr]

I like Dan's profile pic

 

[southsoundtree]

...but I’d put him toe to toe with anyone “at the stump” because he will explain his logic in detail everytime

Seems an error in measuring.

Because you don't read the differences between posters, doesn't mean there isn't one.


Breaking stuff doesn't matter. Being broken matters.

Wide open escapes all day long are depended upon by people the world over.

People putting big trees into tight lays (btw, other forest trees become catapults for material such as branches, which due to aerodynamics come down like javelins), standing at the stump, fine-tuning it down because hanging a big tree up in big tree would be a nightmare to cut down, etc.



Just because someone is loudest, and is a self-proclaimed master cutter beyond anyone, does that really mean that they are the best?

Did you see the video of the logger's shot between the shed and house, small number of inches per side to the eaves. That's some tight shooting. Granted, couldn't have been more than 40" or so, and way under 200', the butt landing between the buildings.

Are you putting Daniel at the stump with that guy, because of what your read and saw on the internet?


Are we talking about chasing around a cut, off a springboard with a 50" bar that's too short? Some people might not consider that the stump, just taking a big top.



How many tree guys out there explain the logic of spurs not hurting trees, appreciably, or that they make tree care too expensive? How often do trees get stripped out by people, because the wind needs to blow through the trees? How often do people remove trees explaining their logic that you can't leave such a dangerous tree over the house (sign here on the over priced, scare tactic pressured contract)?

Explaining someone's 'reasoning' doesn't make it true.

Every heard of baffling people with bullshit?

 

[Jem4417]

We rate cutters on their vids here. If we go by their “worst” we have to go by their “best” as well. Daniel has taken all his time to post video after video with descriptions of his reasoning and I’ve watched hundreds of videoes but his are at the top of all the people/posers on the Internet and if we’re gonna judge people on their online pictures and videos Daniel still outshines the majority of everyone whose ever posted a video or picture of a chainsaw cutting wood online

 

[evo]

I like Dan's profile pic

The blue is a good choice it brings out his eyes

 

[Daniel]

I appreciate the support Jem4417... My youtube channel is not nearly as popular as August or Billy's, who both possess great skill and a commitment to sharing great tree work through video. Those two and Reg and hotsaws all have a lot to offer... And Rico has some cool vids up. He gets up and down a tree with the best of them and runs a skidder like riding a bike!

I don't look to post a lot of mundane everyday type tree work. I prefer the outside the box stuff, which is bound to ruffle some feathers, but this thread in particular has gotten extraordinarily ugly and for my part in that I apologize... If we are going to keep it positive we are going to need a different forum, where criticism and information sharing is clean and safe. If anyone is interested in creating that please let me know. And thanks again Ken for bringing this subject back up again.. it;s clear that the industry is as divided as ever about the TH.

Rico has a point about my saw skills... They would certainly be found to be lacking on a west coast falling crew... What I have worked on instead of improving saw skills, is developing techniques that allow a faller of lesser skill to cut a clean notch and perfectly placed and shaped back cut.. It's all about the dollars and sense.... If I was cutting dozens of trees a day, I would have to develop better saw skills to compete. But residential arb crews may only be falling one or two big trees a day, up to 10-20 small and medium trees that don't take long to fall...

What I have made a living on is learning how to fall trees that other companies would need to climb and rig or use a crane on... I get a lot of jobs like that... I know I AM competing against companies that would never even think of falling a tree whole and price my work accordingly..
While some of my techniques are actually faster than traditional techniques, I don't mind spending a few extra minutes on a when it has to be just right.

Rico may criticize the dull saw or bisected notches etc, but no one can criticize the finished product. Those notches are clean and cut to a calculated depth and width. Nothing is by chance, its all engineered before the cut gets started. There is a big difference there.. I know what kind of notch and back cut to make and why (or not) as well as anybody... How I get there is not always the prettiest, which while criticized is actually of much greater benefit to many, than watching a highly skilled sawyer.. Not many arbs out there that can or will ever be able to fall a tree like a Pat Lacey.. there just is not enough material to practice on.. On the other hand arbs can watch my techniques and get good results with limited skills...

And I would like to address any specific questions or criticisms .. Rico.. your criticisms are often so vague that I don't understand what you are addressing, and really at this point wonder if you really want to engage or are just looking to assault. Responding to that type of criticism doesn't much interest me, but if anyone has a question that would actually like to learn something, I'd be happy to answer..

 

[evo]

I asked many questions, received 0 answers.

Tapered hinge isn’t up for debate here, it’s a good tool in the box. The debate is about sloppy face cuts, judgement, and the efficacy of cutting through the narrow part of the tapered hinge.

It might be my background, but there is nothing revolutionary with leaving more holding wood on one side.

I wasn’t joking about the box cut, circle cut or the triangle cut. Dead serious actually, but instead of posting a bunch of instructionals without first teaching on when and where these cuts can be made or shouldn’t be made I choose to teach and learn first hand

 

[Daniel]

what specifically would you like to know?

 

[rico]

My criticism has been anything but vague Daniel. You have had ample opportunities to address my criticisms, but you resort to either telling us your cuts are perfect, which is utter bullshit, offer no explanation, or your explanation comes up short, making very little sense. Both of which you just did in your last post, while you were busy bloviating once again.

I for one am here to learn, so lets kick things off with an explanation of your thoughts behind this cut.
"Nothing is by chance, its all engineered before the cut gets started". Those are your words, so you now have the opportunity to make this a real teaching moment for us all.

1. Reasons for the un-cleaned,unfinished, possibly bypassed undercut. If you look closely you can also see that the undercut has a clear curvature in it. Which plane of the curved undercut is the tree going to follow?

2. Reasons for the utterly destroyed hinge.

3. Reasons for the multi-level back-cut, which upon close inspection, the picture very clearly shows?

 

[Daniel]

Here's the deal on this cut. It was for a client that I liked a lot, who I had done some stump grinding for. He was getting this hill regraded and needed two or three trees down and the stumps ground. The landscaper was in the middle of the job when he called. It was 5 minutes from my house so I stopped by within an hour. I was alone with only the grinder and its pick up.

Locust was a heavy heavy side leaner, leaning up into or close to another tree, big silver maple as I recall.... It had a ton of side lean.. if it laid up into the neighboring tree, it wold have required climbing. I only had the stump grinder and a throw line, no rope..

I needed the tree to follow the notch to get it out past a big silver maple, but then needed hinge to fail to get the tree into an open part of the yard... I found another pic of that posted below. The problem was the side lean.. You would have just had to see the tree to understand.. I really didn't think it was going to work.

And Rico, I'm impressed that you could spot the back cut was made on multi levels from the first pic. i had forgotten all about it and didn't remember until I found the pics from behind...

The other issue is that we only had a throw line, no rope so I couldn't overload the line by pulling with a machine.... Fortunately I got the line set pretty high.... With two or three landscapers pulling by hand I made the initial back cut low, trying to give as much strength to the holding fibers as possible.. You know how much harder it is to pull a tree over with a back cut, below the face. I put the saw down and went out to help pull, but the holding wood was too strong. When the tree didn't budge on the low back cut, I made a second back cut a little higher and little deeper until the tree did move... I was thinking if the hinge held I would need to cut it off and let gravity take it, but the hinge failed on its own, as soon as the tree got past the maple and it fell perfectly on top of the spruce.... Job well done, which again I didn't think was going to be able to make it work , but it did...

I was using the principles of the swing dutchman which Dent describes, so the shape of the hinge is nothing new.. Can't argue that one as Dent is dead... The low back cut, that was all my idea.... I've seen a low back cut on locust give a ton of holding ability on a heavy front leaner, A LOT BIGGER THAN THIS.... So I tried it here, thinking its the only possible chance to get this tree to the lay.. More of an experiment that a practiced and perfected method... But it worked... which surprised me so I took some pictures..

I'm actually glad you brought ti back to my attention because I had forgotten almost everything about this fall..
to your points:

#1, the face was made with a plate cut which probably had zero effect on the fall, so its more of a habit. The plate cut was not cleaned out perfectly because it didn't need to be... That is not a bypass, its simply a plate cut that is not cleaned out... remember I didn't need the hinge to hold to the face close,... The plate cut itself was probably unnecessary here, but I do it anyhow because its fast and offers the possibility of more holding ability.

#2, trying to get as much holding fiber to fight the sidelean, per Dent's clear description... Apparently he thought it was a good idea often enough to include it in his book

#3 as described above... I've been experimenting with intentionally low back cuts and staggered back cuts etc... This one worked, I got paid 375 for an hours work, the client was impressed with the quick service and ability to get the tree down as planned... and the landscaper was thrilled to be able to finish the job with the trees and stumps out of his way..

 

[Daniel]

This vid at 1:40 shows a heavy front leaning locust that came down really slowly and moved significantly left during the fall... the back cut on the left side was low. This is the tree that got me thinking about the possible benefits of an intentionally low back cut. Just happens to be another locust!

 

[rico]

Intentional plate cuts, intentional low backcuts, intentional stepped backcuts, and multiple attempts at the backcuts, because the first one didn’t work? All on this tiny little locust. More changing stories, nonsense, and fucking Hackery.

I would like everyone to take notice as to where this tree fell in relation to the sighting of the undercut. Not even close, so apparently all this experimentational hackery didn’t actually work, even with a tag line.

 

[rico]

This vid at 1:40 shows a heavy front leaning locust that came down really slowly and moved significantly left during the fall... the back cut on the left side was low. This is the tree that got me thinking about the possible benefits of an intentionally low back cut. Just happens to be another locust!

Why do you continue to post up this shit? The first tree pulled hard to the left because it was a gawd awful cut, stump-pull and all. You did manage to make it hit the lovely mature trees in the background though! Nice work buddy, and yet more proof that you just don’t know what the fuck you are doing.

On the second cut you overshot your backcut so badly, that you damn near miss your undercut all together.

Being a really good faller demands attention to detail, something you are clearly lacking in.

Specific enough for ya?

 

[rico]

I’m fucking nutz for sure, but that doesn’t change the fact that Daniel is a con-man selling himself as an expert faller. Time and time again we have video and pictorial evidence to the contrary.

 

[JeffGu]

I'm an expert faller, myself. Do it all the time... even when I'm drunk. In fact, I probably do my most (and best) falling when I am shit-faced.

 

[rico]

Daniel can make all the bad cut he wants on his own time, but to post them up here over and over, then have the nerve to tell us he is an expert, and somehow better is nonsense. Does this make him a bad guy? Who fucking knows, or cares. I do know I will continue to speak up when I see it.

 

[Mowerr]

I'm a litty 2 titty butt lumbermen

 

[Daniel]

Intentional plate cuts, intentional low backcuts, intentional stepped backcuts, and multiple attempts at the backcuts, because the first one didn’t work? All on this tiny little locust. More changing stories, nonsense, and fucking Hackery.

I would like everyone to take notice as to where this tree fell in relation to the sighting of the undercut. Not even close, so apparently all this experimentational hackery didn’t actually work, even with a tag line.

The tree landed perfectly on top of the spruce in wide open lawn.. that was the lay... that's pretty obvious. How it got there was planned and executed with a notch that was not gunned to the lay. Once the tree was stood up enough to clear the maple I was planning on cutting the hinge if needed, but it failed on its own...

This is not the first tree I have notched one way to get it to clear an obstacle and then had it fall on a diagonal or even sideways to the gun of the hinge. Have you never done that? Is that beyond your ability to comprehend? I have at least two videos showing the exact same method..

 

[Daniel]

Did you see the video of the logger's shot between the shed and house, small number of inches per side to the eaves. That's some tight shooting. Granted, couldn't have been more than 40" or so, and way under 200', the butt landing between the buildings.

Are you putting Daniel at the stump with that guy, because of what your read and saw on the internet?

He was falling a straight tree on flat surface.. this crooked oak was falling across the side of slight hill and managed to hit the target withing a couple inches of center at 50'.. That's a higher degree of difficulty.