SRT Trunk Tie Off/Safety Concerns

Re: SRT the Flaw?

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It's not a flaw in the SRT system. It's a flaw in the climber, for chrissake. If you cut your line, you are a dumbass. That is all and nothing more. Lanyard in if you have to push the envelope.

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ha ha ha, good stuff, don't forget dumbass goundy's if you have them, you could get your line cut
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Re: SRT the Flaw?

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do you climb SRT with a rope wrench or unicender for working Grover? or just ascending? after working SRT for awhile, things become automatic and routine.


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I use SRT for ascent only, I can see an application for the Ropewrench for definate. I will probably buy one soon. But the basal tie off worries me greatly. Too much in fact. It feels fine for ascent, but for work positioning? - when you throw saws and the sometimes rushed atmosphere of a jobsite into the mix and I aint so keen.

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if anything, climbing a basal tie makes you a safer climber.

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If you follow that argument to it's logical conclusion we shouldn't wear any PPE, climbing helmets, safety glasses etc.

Take climbing helmets, we dont wear them because we expect lots of branches to fall on our heads everyday, we wear them for those unforseen occurences....dislodged hangers, accidental swings from a branch walk etc.

By choosing to use SRT for work positioning with the basal tie off you are increasing the risk of an accident just like choosing not to wear a climbing helmet increases the risk of an accident due to unforeseen occurences.
 
Re: SRT the Flaw?

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I dont see what is so bad about running a bowline up?

If you use a nice 6-8mm tag line attached with a quicklink/knot to the bowline you just pull the rope down at the end. As long as your climbline doesnt have knots in it even with a few redirects a 6-8mm line will pull it out easily and if you run into problems a little MA will get it out for sure.

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Its works for certain trees, but could imagine it being a real problem on taller rough barked trees where the force of friction on the bark as you tried to pull the line down through the canopy would be too much even with mechanical advantage.

But yeah, I'd work off an SRT line choked in at the top, it's the line retreival that's the big issue.
 
Re: SRT the Flaw?

They are valid concerns and can me mitigated by adjusting your cultural work practices. Use a scabbard on your pole saw for one. Double tie for handsaw cuts that put you in an awkward position. Push the the basal tie 6 feet off the ground to avoid contact with overzealous ground guys. We can adjust and will. Many have cut themselves out of drt systems as well.
 
Re: SRT the Flaw?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
do you climb SRT with a rope wrench or unicender for working Grover? or just ascending? after working SRT for awhile, things become automatic and routine.


[/ QUOTE ]

I use SRT for ascent only, I can see an application for the Ropewrench for definate. I will probably buy one soon. But the basal tie off worries me greatly. Too much in fact. It feels fine for ascent, but for work positioning? - when you throw saws and the sometimes rushed atmosphere of a jobsite into the mix and I aint so keen.

[ QUOTE ]
if anything, climbing a basal tie makes you a safer climber.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you follow that argument to it's logical conclusion we shouldn't wear any PPE, climbing helmets, safety glasses etc.

Take climbing helmets, we dont wear them because we expect lots of branches to fall on our heads everyday, we wear them for those unforseen occurences....dislodged hangers, accidental swings from a branch walk etc.

By choosing to use SRT for work positioning with the basal tie off you are increasing the risk of an accident just like choosing not to wear a climbing helmet increases the risk of an accident due to unforeseen occurences.

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As the lead climber, you must maintain generalship of the tree/area at all times, if it gets rushed, slow it down, talk to the ground people, get back to a controlled setting, take a break, stop working, soon enough they will look up and wonder why you stopped ;)


I wholeheartedly agree with you Grover, it is a concern, especially when you first try it out.
 
Re: SRT the Flaw?

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but could you imagine lowering a climber down through a massive tree with a MS200 hanging from his harness?



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Seriously though, basal anchors have their time and place like a masters climb

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Ah yes, 'the master's climb'.......so highly relevant for all climbers working in the industry today
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You've just reminded me that we shouldn't rush to adopt all the techniques evolving out of TCCs. Not that I'm saying any of them are bad. Most of the what we do rope climbing- wise evolved from TCCs but a few things have been thrown out along the way as well.

I can see the Ropewrench representing a major change in our industry and I just want people to think a little about what their doing before they change their system.

You see the Ropewrench represents something very special to people, they see the labor saving aspect of it magnified and it seems they forget about disadvantages of the downline of the basal tie off. It's an gamble really. Save energy? or climb on a safer system but work harder?
 
Re: SRT the Flaw?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont see what is so bad about running a bowline up?

If you use a nice 6-8mm tag line attached with a quicklink/knot to the bowline you just pull the rope down at the end. As long as your climbline doesnt have knots in it even with a few redirects a 6-8mm line will pull it out easily and if you run into problems a little MA will get it out for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its works for certain trees, but could imagine it being a real problem on taller rough barked trees where the force of friction on the bark as you tried to pull the line down through the canopy would be too much even with mechanical advantage.

But yeah, I'd work off an SRT line choked in at the top, it's the line retreival that's the big issue.

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The truck can pull it out the 1 time out of 20 that you cant get it easily.
 
Re: SRT the Flaw?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont see what is so bad about running a bowline up?

If you use a nice 6-8mm tag line attached with a quicklink/knot to the bowline you just pull the rope down at the end. As long as your climbline doesnt have knots in it even with a few redirects a 6-8mm line will pull it out easily and if you run into problems a little MA will get it out for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its works for certain trees, but could imagine it being a real problem on taller rough barked trees where the force of friction on the bark as you tried to pull the line down through the canopy would be too much even with mechanical advantage.

But yeah, I'd work off an SRT line choked in at the top, it's the line retreival that's the big issue.

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The truck can pull it out the 1 time out of 20 that you cant get it easily.

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how do you get your truck into the customer's back yard? set up a series of re-direct pulleys to the front of the house?
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Re: SRT the Flaw?

"but to imply my concern about the safety of the downline on a SRT system is somehow unfounded"

Oh..no...I don't mean to say that it's unfounded. I've always felt that was a weak point, but not a deal breaker.

There are many more dangerous aspects of our work that have been dealt with.

Since SRT is such a new concept there will be a time to iron out acceptable practices. SRT does require a new thought process...even if trunk ties aren't used.

Great discussion!
 
Re: SRT the Flaw?

Basal ties are as safe as you make them. I use a basal tie 80% of the time right now and feel perfectly safe. I work with my Dad and one other guy and I've gone over with them numerous times about my basal anchor and they know to stay away from it. No one goes near it with a pole saw, chainsaw, handsaw, basically anything sharp that could cut it.

As for climbing with it, you have to be aware of where it is in relation to you and your work at all times. I've had a few close calls where a piece fell closer than I thought it would or the wind blew it over, etc, but I always had my lanyard secured. If another climber is in the tree with you it can get a little tricky, but most of the time it's Dad up the tree with me and its a big tree, so he can keep his distance, I just have to route my line a little more to avoid his side of the tree.

The part I'm very careful about with a basal anchor is moving around in the tree with a chainsaw on my harness. There have been a few times I've avoided taking a swing for instance, because I was carrying my chainsaw and the swing would take me close to my anchor end of the line. Thats the biggest thing I watch out for, is just going anywhere near the anchor end with a chainsaw on my harness.

Really, like Cary said, once you get in the rhythm of SRT work positioning and things start clicking in your head about where your anchor end of the line is, where you are in relation to it, etc, you'll see its a safe way to work the tree.
 
Re: SRT the Flaw?

If it is too redirected and has too much friction, you should be able to identify this while the basal tie rope end is still on the ground. Retie, ascend, remove some friction, descend, pull it out.

I've nearly not been able to pull an SRT line out, once, and I should have seen it coming a little more.

Another idea is to lanyard in,, unclip yourself from the climbing system, and have the groundie see if they can more the rope toward the basal tie point.

Really a non-issue.



I agree about moving the basal tie up off of the ground with a short ladder, inverted garbage can, etc to stand on, and have competent groundies. Be sure to clearly tell them that your life depends on that line staying intact, and not to bring a saw even close to near it.
 
R

I dnt think anyone i saying your concerns are unfounded. Anyone who climbs with basal tie off thinks about the down line the whole climb, i do. Everything we do on every job to make it more efficient has higher risk. Advanced rigging more stress on tree, cranes less cuts but when things go bad they go bad. It is another tool that we have to make are job more efficient which when you dnt use as much energy you can keep your A game.
 
Re: R

I have been combing set for a couple of years and rarely tie at the base. In the past I would climb of a choked branch. if I had too many redirects I would descend through the middle of the tree to avoid too much friction. Now i mostly use the ring to ring trick Kevin thought of and it works great. Endless redirects without a base tie. I have never been too concerned about lowering in case of emergency. My business partner, who is the other arborist is very skilled at AR if needed.
 
Re: R

This whole talk over SRT being safe or not safe, and how to make it more safe. I just may be the only one that thinks this but it seems that most of the concerns here are do to just not being sure of the technique just yet. By no means am I saying that I am a "pro" at SRT in any means, but I have been climbing this way for at least 11 years now (caving, rescue, industrial work, and yes tree work). If you are unsure about having your anchor at the ground place a running bowline midway up the tree to start, and then when you get to that point keep it there and advance the tail end above you as you go. This way it is always chocked off out of the way (for the most part) and when you are ready to come down have the groundy lock it off to the lowering device that you had most likely used for that tree. Or another trick to do is instead of a running bowline tie an alpine knot (butterfly) with enough tail that makes it to the ground and use that as your running knot. This way when the tree is done being worked in you can return to the ground and pull the line out from there.

It also seems tempting to work throughout the canopy bringing the line with you the whole way (making a spider web of your path in the tree). It's cool to see but really you should try and avoid doing this to much. I had done it in the past and got foucused so much on the next area to go to that I had ran out of rope to make it to the ground if need be. Over all I truely belive if done right the advantages of SRT is well more then DbRT by far. Then again it depends on what is being climbed and done for each job.
 
Re: R

Your concerns are valid, grover, but it doesn't mean that the technique is completely unusable. I admit that I don't use a basal tie off for work positioning often, mostly for ascent. Once I'm up and to my TIP, 9times out of 10 i'll switch to either DdRT or a choked config (depending on how many redirects I'm planning on....thank god for easy SRT redirects). As someone without years of exp working off of SRT I'm usually wary of leaving the basal tie in place as I am perfectly aware of the extra dangers and my relative lack of experience using the technique.

What if the job is just a quick up and down? IE: like one or two troubling limbs on one side of the tree and there is a perfectly serviceable second tree to tie to on the other side of the tree that you are working. The crotch your hanging on is 2' thick and healthy as a well fed cow. Is it really any safer to change it? The rigging lines won't be anywhere near it. You won't be cutting anywhere near it. Your groundies (green, experienced, smart, dumb, or master arborist with ITCC champ belts falling out of the truck cab) won't be anywhere near it. In those situations I feel perfectly fine with leaving the basal tie in place. As I and my crew become more experienced with the technique, I'm sure I'll use it more, but I'm in no rush...and you better believe I'll continue to tie in twice when while cutting regardless of WHAT system I'm using. After all, why else am I wearing a lanyard?

I'm glad these discussions are taking place. SRT is wonderful, but with so many of us adding it to the tool box, the safety discussions are every bit as wonderful.
 
Re: R

From a PRACTICAL and REALISTIC point of view, in this industry SRT basal or other tie offs just don't work for the vast majority of work we do except for initial ascent. IMO there are only three applications where it is practical and realistic and safe to use them and that is 1) tree inspections 2) releasing lady bugs for aphid control and 3) climbing comps! I say practical and realistic and I'll use it frequently. All other work involves some sort of cutting tool in the very vicinity of your life support anchor point. Speaking from and non-dumbassed and common sense view, having your anchor point below you puts it in danger at all times. That puts you in danger. Rigging, bombing stuff, pruning, removals, whatever it doesn't matter. As a climber you and only you are ever and should ever be responsible for your lifeline anchor point….if you think otherwise, well…..

Theres only one remotely safe place for your anchor point in this job and its above your head. The only real danger of it being compromised then is if you notch and back cut the stem you're in! No worrying about it being hit by falling wood, rigged branches or wood or being inadvertently cut by a groundie or otherwise. In DRT the only way to cut your lifeline is to cut the rope right in front of your face. Possible but MUCH MUCH less likely. Its never hidden around the other side of the tree.

Cary has mentioned not hiring dumbasses. Where are you hiring your guys from? Harvard? This industry is PLAGUED with them. Always has been and always will be. Need I explain why? Ok, well ground work is a less than glamourous job. It has a very high turn over rate and requires no education or experience. It has a high turnover rate because not many feel that dragging brush, and humping wood is something they want to do for any amount of time. So, this job tends to attract these types of people with no education or experience, and many times drug and alcohol problems. True factoids right there. It is what it is.

It seems that lots of armchair arbos are always looking for the next coolest thing to make them feel like they're doing there job so much more efficient but in reality, there are very little gains for much added danger. The only real advantages I can see are 1:1 (big deal really) and constant friction (plan you route!). All the yammer about emergency rescue systems and the like hold almost no ground in actual practical tree work. Why? Well if you cut yourself, 99% of the time you will have one hand free to operate your hitch and be down to the ground before your groundie can even think about belaying you. Its true, I'v cut myself and so have you! Another realistic possible scenario would be being stung. Realistically you'll throw on a figure 8 or munter and bomb down before your ground can even think about belaying you. Another realistic and possible scenario would be being hit by a large piece of rigged off wood (or similar, crushed by barber chair ect) that the groundie didn't let run and you either have numerous broken bones or are unconscious. If this scenario were to happen 999/1000 you'll have your lanyard on in which case your oh so bulletproof ground belay is useless and its time for a rescuer to throw spurs on. We constantly see guys throwing up youtube vids of the latest ground anchor rescue system but usually they're complicated and time consuming and in generally not practical, even if they were bomb proof. One was just up the other day that was talked about….guy in the vid was saying how its a simple system…..IT WAS REDICULOUSLY COMPLICATED! Even for a guy trained in this industry. Talk of having belay systems simplified so anyone can use it even a bypasser or homeowner could help you down….Where when and how ever would a home owner or passerby be your main guy on the jobsite to help you down? Honestly?! People have to get real and be practical IMO. If theres a rescue situation where a climber needs assistance to the ground you're going to be grabbing spurs and heading up ASAP.

Some have mentioned keeping the anchor point a ways off the ground with a short ladder or putting it half way up the tree. Again not practical, who's carrying around there little ladder and reconfiguring the basal anchor so its aways off the ground for safety, also immediately eliminating the belay systems. Choked half way up the tree? Hows that retrieved when you reach the ground? Bowline to the top anchor? Retrieved with a piece of throw-in tied to the bight? So now we have throw line at the base of the tree getting caught on rigging, bombed branches or brush being dragged by? These SRT systems require you to get your main TIP from the ground with a trow bag as they aren't really advanceable from a realistic point of view (dragging a bight as you advance up then feeding the tail back down). Are you spending ridiculous amounts of time trying to get that perfect shot when you could have got a decent shot in 1-5 trys and monkeyed up bit with DRT in 1/10 the time?

Our industry is the only one in the world that would allow you to have your main lifeline anchor point right in the direct line of danger from heavy falling debris and sharp cutting objects. Having town points of attachment is not always possible. When you're out on the end of a branch dead wooding, taking off end weight, removing it piece at a time ect, where is your second point? Around the very tip of that branch right? Well if your system was to fail, your only tie in would be that dinky end of the branch which would obviously break instantly. IN reality you're working and cutting with a saw with only one point of attachment SRT or DRT. We're always talking about redundancies but really they only incorporate a redundancy into one part of the system. Such as the last youtube basal anchor I already pointed out….ok so if the anchor fails its backed up. Well what about the rest of your system? Nope not backed up. If your rope, biners ect fail, you're going down. In rope access when they talk about redundancy they mean it. If something fails, they have a whole separate system to back it up. At least one full separate system. In this industry of high production this will probably never happen.

I could write more but its late and I have some practical and realistic tree work to get done in the AM. Theres my realistic un sugar coated version. We need to see some more great vids of the skilled and practical guys like Gord, Reg X man Riggs Roger B(too bad Holley is gone) and the likes who frequent this forum. No armchair arbos there….hmm they must be out cutting trees?
 
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