SRT Trunk Tie Off/Safety Concerns

TC

TC

Participating member
It's about time we seriously all addressed this issue of the basal tie off once and for all.

With the ropewrench getting more popular by the day we have to decide as an industry if we're all happy climbing and work positioning using SRT with the basal tie off.

I've been amazed to watch over the last year or so with the Unicender and now the Ropewrench just how popular this method of work positioning in the tree has become or is going to become.

I'm only too aware of the advantages of the SRT system for work positioning but.......

But what about the rope getting hit/damaged by falling branches during the work?

What about the chainsaw barchain/polesaw damaging the rope as you haul them up through the tree?

What about a groundie inadvertantly slicing through the line as he attemtps to dislodge a hung up branch with the polesaw?

what about a squirrel or raccoon chewing through the rope during the working day?

Do people really understand the new risks associated with this system or do they just not care?

I've used SRT for ascent into the tree for well over 10 years, I just need someone to convince me SRT for work positioning tied off at the base is as safe as DbRt because right now I just dont see it.

answers please.
 
Re: SRT the Flaw?

I agree whole heartedly.

Until you get completely used to watching out for that second sometimes hidden line through the tree...how about when you reach for that sometime Silky handsaw cut which you can't possibly double tie in for all of them...

one slice of a silky on cl. line under pressure and we find you in the back section of TCIA mag described as fallen like a sackopotatoes.
 
Re: SRT the Flaw?

I am going to acknowledge the benefits of both systems while I go get my ten foot pole for this thread. I must admit I am morbidly curious to see how this goes.

-Tom
 
Re: SRT the Flaw?

Completely understand the concern about the squirrel. Ive only used srt in one rec climb (unicender). Other than that its been ascent only. But the thought did cross my mind about a groundie cutting logs to haul to chip and cutting the line. Might be a slow descent depending on how many times you've redirected.
 
Re: SRT the Flaw?

Good questions

A) Hire competent groundies, not dumbasses

B) squirrels and racoons never stick around if they are in the same tree as me, coons go into a hole or leave, squirrels bail ;) never had one sit there and malevolently chew my rope?

C) I am pretty careful if I'm doing some large stuff while base-tied, it only takes minutes to switch my basal-tie from one side of the base to another then my rope is always clear, if i am really unsure, I'll cinch it with a rigging plate/ring to ring f-save system. again, refer to "A".

D) a groundy using a polesaw to poke around your basal-tie? if he really "has" to, keep the cover on the saw, or take the saw off and leave the hook, again, refer back to "A" ;)

Hope this helps man :)
 
Re: SRT the Flaw?

[ QUOTE ]
I agree whole heartedly.

Until you get completely used to watching out for that second sometimes hidden line through the tree...how about when you reach for that sometime Silky handsaw cut which you can't possibly double tie in for all of them...

one slice of a silky on cl. line under pressure and we find you in the back section of TCIA mag described as fallen like a sackopotatoes.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the subject of Silkys when use with SRT for work positioning (basal tie off).

Imagine this for a moment - Its the end of a long week, Friday afternoon, you've spent the last 6 hours pruning a huge Oak (100ft tall), nearly finished, your tired, the chipper is going on the ground, your 40ft from the ground, you grab your Silky polesaw and extend it out for that awkward little branch you missed on your way down earlier (we've all done it), your cutting it, your distracted by the chipper, you can't quite see the tail end of the SRT line which was obscured by the light or ivy or something, you aren't as aware of the tail end of the SRT line because it doesn't really feel like part of your climbing system the way a DbRt rope does - you cut the tail end by mistake, you fall and die.

Here's a Silky cutting through a tensioned climbing line, it happens in one swipe-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gd2CH2tMdL4

I hope we never hear of a death caused by the line being cut on an SRT basal tie off system.


.
 
Re: SRT the Flaw?

I am deathly scared of using my silky around my down-line, suuuupppppper cautious when I have to cut around it, if anything, it has made me a better climber.
 
Re: SRT the Flaw?

Tie off the base to an adjoining tree if posible, this gets the anchored end of the rope some what out of the way. Cinch your tip, only one line to watch. Brightly colored lines. If the saw was next to your leg you would be careful, if its near your line be careful. Lanyard in for best position and backup, it takes a second. Use Ddrt for extensive pruning and removals Srt for access and one limbers or work Srt up and Ddrt coming down. Tell groundies not to free hangers, you'll get it on the way down. Or if its that close to the ground when you get out of the tree. Climb like your life depends on it.
 
Re: SRT the Flaw?

[ QUOTE ]
Tie off the base to an adjoining tree if posible, this gets the anchored end of the rope some what out of the way. Cinch your tip, only one line to watch. Brightly colored lines. If the saw was next to your leg you would be careful, if its near your line be careful. Lanyard in for best position and backup, it takes a second. Use Ddrt for extensive pruning and removals Srt for access and one limbers or work Srt up and Ddrt coming down. Tell groundies not to free hangers, you'll get it on the way down. Or if its that close to the ground when you get out of the tree. Climb like your life depends on it.

[/ QUOTE ]

yep, I always get them out on my way down, it is so fast to go up and down SRT, it is no biggie
cool.gif
 
Re: SRT the Flaw?

Beware dropping pole saws! What about that one time when your stupid handsaw falls. But, the hazards are similar when cutting around the DbRt...
 
Re: SRT the Flaw?

It is as safe as you want it to be.
If you are not comfortable with it, then do something different.
Use it where it makes sense and where it doesn't switch over, nothing is stopping us from working safely.
Work safe, for your life.

I still drt alot and use Srt regularly

ANALOGY
Use a handsaw or use a chainsaw. Both come with the same risk. One is quicker in a given situation and one is not in a given situation

It shouldn't be stumbling block. What it is, is a tool with specific instructions, warning, techniques and tips for safe and effective utilization. Like every tool, system or tech

The fear will disappear and you will take ownership of the technique and eventual master of it.
smile.gif
 
Re: SRT the Flaw?

This is old ground for me...nothing new to add. All valid concerns of course.

Here's a stat that I read today:

1.5 MMMMMillion drivers are arrested every year for drunk driving in the United States

From this article--->

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-12-08...th-year-1-.html


Comes this quote--->

Fatalities dropped 2.9 percent to 32,885, the lowest since 1949, the Washington-based National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said today in an e-mailed statement. Deaths of motorcyclists, pedestrians and large-truck occupants increased.
 
Re: SRT the Flaw?

Using a trunk tie-off has benefits as well as limitations. Whenever I teach the use of a trunk tie-off I take time to explain those limitations.

Inevitably a climber is going to cut their SRT rope and fall. This has already happened with DdRT but no one is blaming the climbing system. After the research work was presented on how easily Silky saws cut 11mm ropes one [major] companies solution was to not allow their climbers to use sub-half inch rope and discontinued the use of Silky's...the climbers had to use less efficient saws...what sort of solution is that?

Critters? Thanks for the chuckle :)
 
Re: SRT the Flaw?

[ QUOTE ]


A) Hire competent groundies, not dumbasses



[/ QUOTE ]

You have to admit the capacity for the down line to be interfered with in some way during a large pruning operation is worrying. Now multiple this over a year thinking of all the climbs you'll do SRT and the chances of an accident greatly increase compared with DbRT.

Throw a rigging line into the mix on a large pruning job and you've got the potential for the ropes getting tangled as branches are lowered.

The difference between this scenario and ropes getting tangled on a regular DbRt line is that the groundies will be messing around with your actual life support downline, not the trailing end of a DbRt line.

I find it incredible that so many experienced climbers are relinquishing control of such a huge length of their rope, their life support, for the sake of what? what's the real issue here?

People are forsaking their safety for the ability to climb the line 1:1 instead of 2:1.

There is no way any serious and experienced climber is gonna come on this thread an tell me that SRT work positioning using a basal tie off is safer than regular DbRT?

Progress in treeclimbing is only good if it makes the work safer, this is the obvious flaw in the SRT work positioning system (with the basal tie off).

And please dont throw the 'groundie rescue advantages of the basal tie off' at me, that's fine for SRT ascent, but could you imagine lowering a climber down through a massive tree with a MS200 hanging from his harness? The saw would cause even more injury as it repeatedly hit his skull as it flopped over all the branches.

.
 
Re: SRT the Flaw?

I hear ya Grover. It's good to play these ideas out.
The number one way to avoid that scenario is to always be tied in twice when
cutting. Chain saw, pole saw, hand saw, if your tied in twice you should be fine.
A long lanyard can really help to find the right combination of tie in points.
 
Re: SRT the Flaw?

do you climb SRT with a rope wrench or unicender for working Grover? or just ascending? after working SRT for awhile, things become automatic and routine.

it all just clicks and falls into place ( no pun intended ;)

and I do agree, it would be hard to lower someone after a bunch of redirects.

if anything, climbing a basal tie makes you a safer climber.
 
Re: SRT the Flaw?

I dont see what is so bad about running a bowline up?

If you use a nice 6-8mm tag line attached with a quicklink/knot to the bowline you just pull the rope down at the end. As long as your climbline doesnt have knots in it even with a few redirects a 6-8mm line will pull it out easily and if you run into problems a little MA will get it out for sure.
 
Re: SRT the Flaw?

[ QUOTE ]
but could you imagine lowering a climber down through a massive tree with a MS200 hanging from his harness?



[/ QUOTE ]

..uh, yes. Seriously though, basal anchors have their time and place like a masters climb or certain scenarios at work. Also, don't forget about "doubling" the load on the TIP as another SRT (w/ base anchor) consideration.
 
Re: SRT the Flaw?

It's not a flaw in the SRT system. It's a flaw in the climber, for chrissake. If you cut your line, you are a dumbass. That is all and nothing more. Lanyard in if you have to push the envelope.
 
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