I go to see how Rich did his splice on his ice tail for eye and eye. He had it so the ends were buried all the way till they met in the center. I was wondering about what it does if you don't bury it all the way under as far as if it flattens out or anything. I am looking to try it out and see how it goes and thought I'd get some opinions on it.
splicing Icetail
- Thread starter PUClimber
- Start date
R
rich_h
Guest
Hey Tyler, have any sushi cravings recently????
When splicing Ice Tail and almost all hollow braid eye to eyes I usually cross the legs in the middle and then taper both sides out so that it looks and feels like the ends are buried until they meet. Doing it this way will give you a much smoother, consistent piece. If you decided not to cross the legs my guess is that the Ice Tail would act similarly to Beeline and flatten out a bit. The other thing I like about splicing the piece and crossing the legs is that the end result is much closer to 3/8" instead of the 5/16" and therefore you have more knot to hold on to.
Good luck with the splicing!!!
When splicing Ice Tail and almost all hollow braid eye to eyes I usually cross the legs in the middle and then taper both sides out so that it looks and feels like the ends are buried until they meet. Doing it this way will give you a much smoother, consistent piece. If you decided not to cross the legs my guess is that the Ice Tail would act similarly to Beeline and flatten out a bit. The other thing I like about splicing the piece and crossing the legs is that the end result is much closer to 3/8" instead of the 5/16" and therefore you have more knot to hold on to.
Good luck with the splicing!!!
- Location
- Western Norway
When splicing the ice tail I use a locked brumel, taper the ends and bury about one inch (2-3cm). The ice tail function great even though it is flattening, best prussik rope to now.
Svein
Svein
- Location
- S.E. Wisconsin
I can't imagine a splice with a 1" bury is srong. What's the breaking strength on that 150 pounds?
I'd actually love to hear some comments on splicing hollow braid eye and eye tails... mainly about burry lengths and how it affects the strength. Comparing Technora, Tenex and this new Ice Tail which I haven't tried yet. I've spliced 8mm Technora with a locked Brumell with about 2-3 inches burry and it seems fine. Also, has anyone tied a Technora tail without a jacket on it? does it perform well?
- Location
- Western Norway
I actually did some tests of it on Tech 12, my previous split tail, spliced a length the same way and towed my car with it, didnt come out.
In a locked brumel the locks hold the splice in not the bury, or am I wrong. Nick?
Svein
In a locked brumel the locks hold the splice in not the bury, or am I wrong. Nick?
Svein
- Location
- S.E. Wisconsin
Low stretch ropes are very slippery. All that needs to happen for a locking brummel to come out is for the braids to unravel. A one or two inch bury is crazy for climbing application!
NickfromWI
Participating member
- Location
- Los Angeles, CA
In a locked brummell, the lock IS the splice, but as Mike just said, you have to bury enough that the tail won't unravel. Dave from OK Arborist supply has a video of me splicing a Beeline hitch cord and when I formed one of the eyes, buried the tail, then gave it a gentle tug and the whole thing just came apart! The tail was not too short, but it did unravel while I was making the taper. It was an eye opener!
1" sounds WAY too short. I do about 3-4" on HRC and Beeline. Unfortunately, right now Yale and New Enland Ropes don't have published splicing directions for these ropes, so everyone is guessing. I encourage you to do what I did and call them and request/demand they publish directions for us. How can we comply with ANSI's suggestion that we follow the manufacturer's recommendation when they aren't recommending to us? They don't expect us to just NOT splice it, do they? Stepping down from soap-box now.
When I splice polyester, vectran, or technora hollowbraids into an eye-eye sling I like to make the tails run the ENTIRE length of the sling. Just like Rich said, it makes the rope a little beefier, and it gives consistent diameter.
love
nick
1" sounds WAY too short. I do about 3-4" on HRC and Beeline. Unfortunately, right now Yale and New Enland Ropes don't have published splicing directions for these ropes, so everyone is guessing. I encourage you to do what I did and call them and request/demand they publish directions for us. How can we comply with ANSI's suggestion that we follow the manufacturer's recommendation when they aren't recommending to us? They don't expect us to just NOT splice it, do they? Stepping down from soap-box now.
When I splice polyester, vectran, or technora hollowbraids into an eye-eye sling I like to make the tails run the ENTIRE length of the sling. Just like Rich said, it makes the rope a little beefier, and it gives consistent diameter.
love
nick
R
rich_h
Guest
"I'd actually love to hear some comments on splicing hollow braid eye and eye tails... mainly about burry lengths and how it affects the strength."
It depends upon what type of splice you are putting in the hollow braid and what type of material it is made of. A standard eye splice for hollow braid is technically stronger than the locking Brummell due to the fact that the standard eye splice has the ability to "slip" if put under huge loads. Because the splice can slip, the initial bury and taper are very important to do correctly. If you start tapering too quickly the splice will slip faster and under less load. The locking Brummell will not slip and therefore will snap under the same force that causes the standard splice to slip. Because the Brummell does lock, however, this allows you to bury less and taper faster than the standard eye splice. I still would bury as much as possible as your situation allows in order to avoid the taper coming out. (a lock stitch helps for that too) Certain applications are too short to be done correctly with a standard eye splice and therefore will need to be done with a Brummel, but I am pretty sure the standard eye splice is actually stronger. Of coarse with hitch cords, the hitch will slide on the rope before the Brummel splice will break so I think they are perfectly acceptable for that application regardless of Class I or Class II construction.
If your hollow braid is a technora or any other Class II cord and you are doing a standard eye splice you need to drastically increase the length of your taper because of the fact that the Class II fibers are much more slippery. With the brummell I would again bury for as much as the application allows, but thats just me.
(it is very possible that my understanding of the above is competely incorrect)
"Comparing Technora, Tenex and this new Ice Tail which I haven't tried yet. I've spliced 8mm Technora with a locked Brumell with about 2-3 inches burry and it seems fine. Also, has anyone tied a Technora tail without a jacket on it? does it perform well?"
All Gear/Atlantic Braids has a 16 strand Technora without a jacket (Tech Cord is what they call it)that is 5/16" in diameter and splices rather nicely. I personally find that it has a ton of friction and stays really small even after splicing a crossed over eye to eye and therefore doesn't work real well for me as a friction hitch cord. However, IMO it is perfect for making hitches to back up ascenders and for making "secret weapons".
Ice Tail on the other hand is a 12 strand Technora blend that has performed beautifully for me as a hitch cord.
It depends upon what type of splice you are putting in the hollow braid and what type of material it is made of. A standard eye splice for hollow braid is technically stronger than the locking Brummell due to the fact that the standard eye splice has the ability to "slip" if put under huge loads. Because the splice can slip, the initial bury and taper are very important to do correctly. If you start tapering too quickly the splice will slip faster and under less load. The locking Brummell will not slip and therefore will snap under the same force that causes the standard splice to slip. Because the Brummell does lock, however, this allows you to bury less and taper faster than the standard eye splice. I still would bury as much as possible as your situation allows in order to avoid the taper coming out. (a lock stitch helps for that too) Certain applications are too short to be done correctly with a standard eye splice and therefore will need to be done with a Brummel, but I am pretty sure the standard eye splice is actually stronger. Of coarse with hitch cords, the hitch will slide on the rope before the Brummel splice will break so I think they are perfectly acceptable for that application regardless of Class I or Class II construction.
If your hollow braid is a technora or any other Class II cord and you are doing a standard eye splice you need to drastically increase the length of your taper because of the fact that the Class II fibers are much more slippery. With the brummell I would again bury for as much as the application allows, but thats just me.
(it is very possible that my understanding of the above is competely incorrect)
"Comparing Technora, Tenex and this new Ice Tail which I haven't tried yet. I've spliced 8mm Technora with a locked Brumell with about 2-3 inches burry and it seems fine. Also, has anyone tied a Technora tail without a jacket on it? does it perform well?"
All Gear/Atlantic Braids has a 16 strand Technora without a jacket (Tech Cord is what they call it)that is 5/16" in diameter and splices rather nicely. I personally find that it has a ton of friction and stays really small even after splicing a crossed over eye to eye and therefore doesn't work real well for me as a friction hitch cord. However, IMO it is perfect for making hitches to back up ascenders and for making "secret weapons".
Ice Tail on the other hand is a 12 strand Technora blend that has performed beautifully for me as a hitch cord.
R
rich_h
Guest
LOL I see that Nick beat me to the punch, good chance that his explaination is much better and more understandable than mine.
- Location
- Western Norway
Thanks Nick.
I checked my Ice Tail and the bury is 2 inches (5cm). The bury is tapered and taped with elctrician tape, the locks are whipped. I don´t feel unsecure in this. Reason I do this is that I think the rope will be too thick and stiff with a bury all way round. I found some instructions on the New England site but no measurements for the bury. No wonder your splice came out when the cords unrawelled before burying, there´s no lock left then!
Svein
I checked my Ice Tail and the bury is 2 inches (5cm). The bury is tapered and taped with elctrician tape, the locks are whipped. I don´t feel unsecure in this. Reason I do this is that I think the rope will be too thick and stiff with a bury all way round. I found some instructions on the New England site but no measurements for the bury. No wonder your splice came out when the cords unrawelled before burying, there´s no lock left then!
Svein
- Location
- S.E. Wisconsin
The Brummell is designed to hold the splice at low loads, not replace the bury.
Standard recommended bury is 21 times rope diameter for poyester, 48 times for the slippery, high modulus ropes. That calls for 15" of bury on a 5/16" rope.
Some of the comments made so far are very scary to me, thinking of you guys hanging your life on these splices!
Standard recommended bury is 21 times rope diameter for poyester, 48 times for the slippery, high modulus ropes. That calls for 15" of bury on a 5/16" rope.
Some of the comments made so far are very scary to me, thinking of you guys hanging your life on these splices!
Norm_Hall
New member
- Location
- Wauconda, (Chicago),IL,USA
I do straight buries on eye & eyes. Class 2 splicing instructions for hollow braid call for strate buries. This is the strongest hollow braid splice. Locking brummel does weaken the splice more than a red book brummel.
Strate buries are stronger than red book brummel splices (not stretching as many rope fibers). A complete bury is essential tho, with crossover.
This pic shows the strate bury eye splice on Atlantic Braids Tech Cord and Samsons 1/4" Tech 12. I use both for friction hitch cords. The Atlantic Braids seems to perform better on my 7/16" climbing line.
Strate buries are stronger than red book brummel splices (not stretching as many rope fibers). A complete bury is essential tho, with crossover.
This pic shows the strate bury eye splice on Atlantic Braids Tech Cord and Samsons 1/4" Tech 12. I use both for friction hitch cords. The Atlantic Braids seems to perform better on my 7/16" climbing line.
Attachments
Norm_Hall
New member
- Location
- Wauconda, (Chicago),IL,USA
NickfromWI
Participating member
- Location
- Los Angeles, CA
[ QUOTE ]
... Locking brummel does weaken the splice more than a red book brummel.
Strate buries are stronger than red book brummel ...
[/ QUOTE ]
Red Book Brumel! Cool name! They have a new "red book" available soon...but it's not red anymore
I was sent a piece of the 16 strand technora from Atlantic Braids about 2 years ago...i measured it to be a 1/4". I still have a spliced one, I'll try to get a pic up here.
I've often wondered what the point was of going through/through before the bury in the red book brummell. More holding power maybe? Like a lightened version of the locked brummell?
love
nick
... Locking brummel does weaken the splice more than a red book brummel.
Strate buries are stronger than red book brummel ...
[/ QUOTE ]
Red Book Brumel! Cool name! They have a new "red book" available soon...but it's not red anymore
I was sent a piece of the 16 strand technora from Atlantic Braids about 2 years ago...i measured it to be a 1/4". I still have a spliced one, I'll try to get a pic up here.
I've often wondered what the point was of going through/through before the bury in the red book brummell. More holding power maybe? Like a lightened version of the locked brummell?
love
nick
I dont follow your through / through comment,
Passing the tail through hte standing part twice?
Having never seen 'the red book' i dont have a clue what you are on about.
jamie
Passing the tail through hte standing part twice?
Having never seen 'the red book' i dont have a clue what you are on about.
jamie
NickfromWI
Participating member
- Location
- Los Angeles, CA
Jamie, what you describes IS what I mean about the through/through.
The redbook norm referred to is a Samson's splicing manual. I think it was printed in the 80s. I have a copy somewhere that Norm gave me when I first started splicing a few years ago.
Samson has a NEW manual, yet to be released. You can see it right on their home page.
love
nick
The redbook norm referred to is a Samson's splicing manual. I think it was printed in the 80s. I have a copy somewhere that Norm gave me when I first started splicing a few years ago.
Samson has a NEW manual, yet to be released. You can see it right on their home page.
love
nick
R
rich_h
Guest
The Red Book is a book of splicing manuals put out by Samson Rope Technologies. They have just updated it and are about to release it to the public. From what I have seen of the pictures it looks fantastic and would be a great reference for all splicers.
Rich what you are saying sounds liek and eye eye prussic with the buried tails tapered and crossing in the middle of the cord?
My thought which if nick has picked me up correctly was forming, what i know, as a brummell. forming the eye by passing the tail through the standing part twice as opposed to a locked brummell where the tail passes through the standing part then the standing part through the tail then the bury.
If anyone is still following me i'm impresed
Jamie
My thought which if nick has picked me up correctly was forming, what i know, as a brummell. forming the eye by passing the tail through the standing part twice as opposed to a locked brummell where the tail passes through the standing part then the standing part through the tail then the bury.
If anyone is still following me i'm impresed
Jamie
Norm_Hall
New member
- Location
- Wauconda, (Chicago),IL,USA
I did get a copy of the new 'Red Book' from Jim Cass at TCI Expo (it is not red). Very detailed splicing instructions with pictures (for those of us that can't follow written instructions; Nick). In the new manual, there are no 'locks' for hollow braid eyes. Just a straight bury. So, those of us that are doing 'locks' on hollow braids, you don't have to anymore.
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