Just use the vehicle as an anchor point, using a masadam is hardly taxing on the groundie even a 2:1 is easy they just need to pull for the 30 seconds of back cut.
Spar removal best practices ? (Pull line?)
- Thread starter WannaClimb
- Start date
Fuck hand pulls and fuck equipment pulls. Both bring way too much potential for error which can get a climber killed/maimed. A Maasdam is a climbers best friend when it comes to pulling over tops and logs while aloft. Using powered equipment should be the rare exception here.
- Location
- PA
For my own knowledge, can you elaborate on this. Specifically hand pulls. Is it an issue when the ground worker pulls during the back cut?
From the training I took, they said to have the groundie pull once your back cut is done
climbingmonkey24
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- United States
Sorry if it’s already been mentioned…
but stubs can also be used for friction or as a false crotch (if big enough and depending on size of the rig). I’ve seen some climbers who prefer to use older style rigging techniques and work the ropes themselves. No blocks or other gadgets, just a rope and the tree. Whether rigging branches or tops. They’re also a means to locking off a rigging line and or something to stand on for better footing.
I have used pull lines when taking a top before. I think one of the most important things though is your overall positioning and comfort. If you’re too low and cutting right in front of your face, might not have the best vantage point and you’re decreasing your capacity to maintain control and push the top as it goes if necessary. So cutting more at around waist height would probably be better.
One thing I have experimented with a few times when doing spar work is the three tie in point system. I’m pretty sure I made a thread about it in the past and posted a video I found on the subject, but the primary purpose is for better work position and comfort. So instead of just the typical lanyard around the trunk and cinched climbing line, you add a third TIP either in the form of a lanyard or climb line. So you are lanyard in, and then you position the other two TIP’s opposite each other around the trunk so when you lean back each is pulling in the opposite direction. This can help to keep you more steady, feel more secure, and keep you from slipping. One could argue though that there is a drawback to having three TIP if you needed to bail real quick.
Also, be aware of fear / anxiety and don’t let it cloud your judgement and cause you to take any unnecessary risks. For example, if someone is afraid to climb higher they may be tempted to take a bigger top than what would be appropriate because they just want to get out of the tree as fast as possible. Sometimes you need to just take a step back, take some breaths, and re-evaluate the situation. Make a decision you're confident in and don’t just “hope for the best” in other words.
One last thing, I find myself sometimes using the snap cut method when chunking down wood rather than the typical notch and back cut, even when rigging. Make my cuts, put saw down, and then push the log off. Anyone else like to use that cut method?
but stubs can also be used for friction or as a false crotch (if big enough and depending on size of the rig). I’ve seen some climbers who prefer to use older style rigging techniques and work the ropes themselves. No blocks or other gadgets, just a rope and the tree. Whether rigging branches or tops. They’re also a means to locking off a rigging line and or something to stand on for better footing.
I have used pull lines when taking a top before. I think one of the most important things though is your overall positioning and comfort. If you’re too low and cutting right in front of your face, might not have the best vantage point and you’re decreasing your capacity to maintain control and push the top as it goes if necessary. So cutting more at around waist height would probably be better.
One thing I have experimented with a few times when doing spar work is the three tie in point system. I’m pretty sure I made a thread about it in the past and posted a video I found on the subject, but the primary purpose is for better work position and comfort. So instead of just the typical lanyard around the trunk and cinched climbing line, you add a third TIP either in the form of a lanyard or climb line. So you are lanyard in, and then you position the other two TIP’s opposite each other around the trunk so when you lean back each is pulling in the opposite direction. This can help to keep you more steady, feel more secure, and keep you from slipping. One could argue though that there is a drawback to having three TIP if you needed to bail real quick.
Also, be aware of fear / anxiety and don’t let it cloud your judgement and cause you to take any unnecessary risks. For example, if someone is afraid to climb higher they may be tempted to take a bigger top than what would be appropriate because they just want to get out of the tree as fast as possible. Sometimes you need to just take a step back, take some breaths, and re-evaluate the situation. Make a decision you're confident in and don’t just “hope for the best” in other words.
One last thing, I find myself sometimes using the snap cut method when chunking down wood rather than the typical notch and back cut, even when rigging. Make my cuts, put saw down, and then push the log off. Anyone else like to use that cut method?
Muggs
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Canuckistan
I use snap cuts with my rigging constantly, big fan
Shadowscape
Been here a while
- Location
- far north
Equipment pulls you have no feel for how the pull is going. All brute force with zero feedback. But equipment makes for a good anchor point.
Hand pulls are inconsistent with too many error factors (foot slips; puller gets tired; goes for better grip).
Pulls, when a climber is in a danger zone need to be controlled with a hand on feedback as to how things are going. The puller needs total command of the top, or section being pulled, and that means a consistent pull of the proper force for the moment.
Never use a snap cut when topping a tree. A wind shift may have you with a top in your face.
Hand pulls are inconsistent with too many error factors (foot slips; puller gets tired; goes for better grip).
Pulls, when a climber is in a danger zone need to be controlled with a hand on feedback as to how things are going. The puller needs total command of the top, or section being pulled, and that means a consistent pull of the proper force for the moment.
Never use a snap cut when topping a tree. A wind shift may have you with a top in your face.
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climbingmonkey24
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- United States
I think I might’ve used snap cuts on crane picks a few times but you need to make sure you cut through enough that the piece comes right off nice and smooth.
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Well, regardless of what you use to pull it’s pretty important to communicate exactly what you want to anyone who is helping you.
Comm units are extremely helpful for this in my opinion.
Ok, one tip is that is sometimes useful is to throw a line over the tree from the ground and pull the rig line or tagline up and over. Then when you get to the place you want to take the top you can tie a running bowline around the stem above your cut. It depends on the situation of course but in certain trees this can save some climbing effort
Comm units are extremely helpful for this in my opinion.
Ok, one tip is that is sometimes useful is to throw a line over the tree from the ground and pull the rig line or tagline up and over. Then when you get to the place you want to take the top you can tie a running bowline around the stem above your cut. It depends on the situation of course but in certain trees this can save some climbing effort
The problem with hand pulls is that it is very easy to release slack back into the system, which can lead to catastrophic outcomes. Unfortunately it is done way too often in this industry because of a lack of proper training.
Good to see you @climbingmonkey24. Hope all is well mi amigo.
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
Redirecting through a prussic- minding pulley with a hitch cord for a progress capture, whether 1:1 or with mechanical advantage, addresses this.
If a person ties the pull line taut, then deflects the line sideways, you gain power, no progress capture, though.
I pull with a machine without issue. My machine is 3.xx mph at top speed, walking speed. It can go much slower. I cut my top to where I want, then have it pulled.
For pulling while cutting, comm units are very important.
FInesse is really important.
evo
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- My Island, WA
That is a risk. But one easily mitigated. A 2:1 with a progress capture, a fiddle block with a cam that can be bypassed if wanted (used or flick the rope to unlock).
Shadowscape
Been here a while
- Location
- far north
Flicked to unlock. How many ground crews have unintentionally unlocked a fiddle block when beginning to pull? I will raise my own hand on that one. NOPE! Not when I am topping a tree and need some pull. I want a system that you have to physically work at to be able to introduce slack into the line. Progress capture is fine, but a fiddle block with a sailboat cam system the rope lifts out of... not when it is me in the tree.
I have run a few so-called experienced groundies off of jobs for this offense. Flopping around like a fish on a line while they hang off of a taut tag-line..Do they not understand what that does to the other end of the tag-line? Again, poor training...
Shadowscape
Been here a while
- Location
- far north
Bouncing on a tag line. There's a reason for keeping capital punishment on the books.
evo
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- My Island, WA
I won’t disagree with you. Much of my experience comes from a well oiled team. Many things I will do with those I trust, and many I won’t do with those I do not.
Serf Life
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Maine Island
This about sums up the thread.
Mike H
Participating member
- Location
- Boulder County
I use compression ratchet straps when I need pretension or static pull when pulling over a spar. Girth hitch 2 straps to an anchor and add two hitch cords or prussiks to the pull line about 15 ft from the anchor. Steel carabiner between the ratchet and friction hitch and tighten ratchet. Repeat with the second strap. Reset and repeat until it is felled.
After all of this typing, I may have convinced myself to just buy a Masdam
After all of this typing, I may have convinced myself to just buy a Masdam
evo
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- My Island, WA
Sums up my life
Muggs
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Canuckistan
This is why I had to move away from contract climbing. Different guys on the ropes is frustrating as hell, and can be very dangerous. Working with someone I really trust, we can do anything.
