Spar removal best practices ? (Pull line?)

Shadowscape said:
This is a video that can show you problems with a thin notch. It is not a top removal, but it could occur while topping a tree. The notch closes and the weight of the limb (in this case) causes it to split. If you were felling a tree, we call it a barber chair. A thin notch on a heavy top could do the same thing and smack you in the kisser. I will make a thin notch when dropping portions of the stem down because short logs are not likely to split, and once the log is going where I want it to, I would just as soon have the hinge let go. I'm pretty sure if he had made a good notch on the bottom this would not have happened. Anyway, here it is for what it is worth:
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Poor cutting, and possibly in the Circle of Death with the lanyard.

A Coos Bay was one easy option.
Box-cut, another.



Heavy leaners are no joke. Don't drop-cut a heavy leaner.

Small saws exacerbate the issue.
 
southsoundtree said:
Poor cutting, and possibly in the Circle of Death with the lanyard.

A Coos Bay was one easy option.
Box-cut, another.



Heavy leaners are no joke. Don't drop-cut a heavy leaner.

Small saws exacerbate the issue.
Click to expand...

I feel like that video had several nopes. I feel like I would have done something differently to prevent that. But, maybe that's because I saw the video. Having the lanyard attached while cutting there seems overly confident. Climbing out further, using a bigger saw, running the lanyard around the branch an extra time, deepening the face kerf and running it around the sides more, lanyarding into another branch elsewhere, cutting with no lanyard, etc. Lots of potential improvements to where he put himself. Props for getting the cut finished, but I bet his back was hella sore.

I did this with a 5" diameter live oak limb at the start of my climbing career and learned that lesson. My back was sore for a couple weeks. It was very easy to imagine how much worse even a a 6" or 8" limb would have been.
 
Had I been in that situation my thought would have been to cut the lanyard rather than the rest of the limb. But it is hard to wrap your mind around cutting a life support system. Kudos to him for doing what he did to free himself quickly. And could you imagine if his saw lanyard had broken away? Then he would have been up shit's creek. Which would naturally bring up the pros and cons of breakaway saw lanyards.
 
Kinda looked like a steel lanyard but yeah, not a bad idea.

Maybe this is a case where blindly following the rules isn't a good idea. I think the standards actually say tie in twice unless doing so creates more risk.


These guys seem like they're figuring it out on the fly which is not a good idea in this unforgiving line of work. The guy who made the video seemed like he was winging it in the cwood and cutting out in front of his under cut setting up a saw snatcher situation.
 
Easy to lanyard into the upper limb, not around what he was cutting.





I had a hard, hard leaning piece to rig recently.
I had a twisted clevis connecting my flipline on my hip Ds, while tied into a larger tree behind me.
I used a sling with kleimheist on my flipline and biner to connect to my bridge ring, with slack on my flipline rope grab, just in case. My flipline was then connected to my other bridge ring.

This provided a non-Circle of Death connection, as well as a cuttable link.

I used a shallow face-cut, aimed off the lean a bit. I cut the holding wood into a triangle to be able to cut the holding wood faster, cutting off both corners of the hinge to reduce the ability to barber chair.

20230423_164848.jpg
It ripped before ideal, but didn't split.

The branch core didn't help (Edit: I don't think it helped. I don't think it hurt anything. My groundworker said it made quite a noise, ripping). I didn't look at the far side. My mistake. It didn't turn a bit, as desired, but was ok, overall.

This was below a very old breakout and regrowth. EDIT: Leftmost tree on the right side of the middle clearing. The trunk above the bend was about the same diameter as where I cut below the bend, definitely smaller, naturally, maybe 75-80% of the diameter. It grew at that diameter for about 9-11', changing to four, long, large limbs below horizontal, and a 20'-ish regrown, vertical leader growing upward (visible in the picture if you look closely). I cut it at about 3' below the 90 degree bend to horizontal. In hindsight, I should have cut it on the horizontal, as there was less decay above than below the 90 degree turn (decay tends to be in the wood present at the time of wounding-Shigo).
20230423_162409.jpg20230421_173726.jpg
 
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WannaClimb said:
I just want to say, this thread has been great and has already made me safer. Thank you all. Excellent replies AND videos
Click to expand...
Take your time and be safe. Think things out. What might happen if I do this. Or, where is this going to go once I cut it loose. What is it going to hit, and if it does, what might happen as a result.
I can remember dropping a top one time and having the tip hit another tree. The butt end kept going down but the tip end flipped back over smacking me hard enough to knock the saw out of my hands and broke my nose. I was lucky.
Just run through the scenarios in your mind of what is going to happen, or likely to happen. Never be afraid to say you are not comfortable with a task. There is always other way to get the job done. May take a bit longer and be more work, but you get to go home at the end of the day. That is what matters in the long run.
Good luck on your adventures.
 
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What species do you work, @WannaClimb?




Be aware of how parts of the tree behind you will rotate over you as the top falls.




I like a top to be cut up the way I want it, then call for the pull.

Before I face-cut, I have a test-pull done by the ground worker.

People want to help. It doesn't mean they know how to help or hinder. Too much pull can split a top. More pull is more recoil of the climber on the spar.

My goal is not to see if they can bend the whole tree, and how much they can bend it. Barring the need for momentum to fight side-lean, the groundworker needs to just rotate the top over the hinge until gravity takes over. Finesse over power.

The more horizontal the line-angle of the pull rope, the less pull it will take from the ground worker.

Installing a high pull-line can be done with a short throw-line and weight, or just a weighted rigging line (Biner and/ or throw weight) thrown through a fork and choked or re-directed down to the bottom of the piece being removed, near the climber (above the cut... in the same vein as a climbing system SRT Basal Anchor).



Wedges don't pull on bad roots like a pre-tensioned pull-line does.

A wedge to back-up a pull rope is an easy safety measure (probably frequently not done).

A Maasdam continuous rope-puller is a great inexpensive tool...Mechanical Advantage with progress capture.

A 2:1 pulley set-up to double your ground worker's pulling power is simple and cheap. (2) 2:1 MA systems, piggybacked is also very cheap, compact, and inexpensive. Bulk hitch cord tied into a friction hitch can be used for a progress capture.

Throwing a small top, instead of rigging by an inexperienced ground worker can be a win.


Beware that all ropes are clear of falling tree parts (a dangling, secured bight on a harness getting caught by falling tree parts, or a thimble/ stopper knot on the end of a lanyard getting caught in a fork, etc).


Always think of the worst case scenario of a rope getting tangled in a moving/ spinning piece of machinery or falling/ rolling wood. Redirecting the excess rope tails (standing ends) laterally away from the active work zone over limbs and fences can be nice.

I like to hang my rigging line with a carabiner on a weak, breakaway cord, not directly on strong parts of my saddle. In time, some company will start to make a breakaway system for hanging gear like they make saw lanyards. A rigging (any) rope, attached strongly to a saddle, going into the chipper is bad news.
 
Neill said:
In a word, yes, a narrow notch is more likely to cause a barber chair- because the felled stem would havecommitted to a direction but not gained enough momentum to break a hinge. This would be especially true on a large top, one with an overly thick hinge, in a tree type that is known for strong hinge wood.
Using a humboldt or conventional notch is less important. a face cut that is at least 45 degrees, the thinner the hinge left, and the smaller, less head lean on the tree all equal less chance of an extreme bending moment and barber chair. Bending moment- the force a top exerts on the stem as it pushes off- this can easily throw you off your spurs.
I use tag lines to pull over tops all the time, it’s a margin of safety for directing the top. If it makes you uncomfortable you should fell more trees from the ground with a tagline to become more familiar.

I prefer a tag to be pretentioned to a desired tautness before making any cuts. I like it to be on a machine if available because it is just strong and easy. If that isn’t an option and it’s an important pull I like the tag to be anchored and tensioned. The grounds person can then simply lean onto the taut line if additional force is needed and they won’t be tired from having been pulling while I make cuts and position myself.
Click to expand...
I disagree with the machine part you're taking a top you shouldn't have to pull that hard and it is much easier to pull to hard without realizing it. A simple 2:1 which we should all have the equipment to set up or a rope puller is all you should ever need for topping imo.
 
I’ve given too much thought to the automatic redundancy hazard of lanyard use.
Frequently in the PNW, we will put our selves in work positions and locations where lanyard use is NOT redundant and little more than a positioning aid. Out on the tips or a Douglas fir for an example, where you must keep all your weight on your climbing line to avoid the limb failing under your feet. If you lanyard in to the limb you’re standing on, or a neighboring limb it’s often 2” diameter stuff 10-20’ out from the trunk.
If you cut your climb line you will shock load the limb, likely breaking it, or just sliding off the end.

Thus not redundant at all.

Yes a dual system can be a cumbersome but obvious solution, OR a hack is to carry a spare hitch cord, and just before you get to your target, slap it onto your climb line. Move your lanyard to your bridge and take a few more steps out. This gives you two points of attachment out of reach from your saw.

Obviously this is more of a single line trick.
But most of the time I will choose to use my lanyard for work positioning, as the rope angle puts my climb line way out of saw range anyway. But I will never call it redundant
 
L3VI said:
Agreed, I'm not really comfortable with being in a tree that has a machine pulling on it.
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Agree 100%
If you need a machine pulling the top, you haven't done your job up in the tree, and/or the top is too large, and all it is going to do it get you hurt or killed.
Pre tensioning should amount to, Does the ground crew have control of the top? Period!
 
evo said:
I’ve given too much thought to the automatic redundancy hazard of lanyard use.
Frequently in the PNW, we will put our selves in work positions and locations where lanyard use is NOT redundant and little more than a positioning aid. Out on the tips or a Douglas fir for an example, where you must keep all your weight on your climbing line to avoid the limb failing under your feet. If you lanyard in to the limb you’re standing on, or a neighboring limb it’s often 2” diameter stuff 10-20’ out from the trunk.
If you cut your climb line you will shock load the limb, likely breaking it, or just sliding off the end.

Thus not redundant at all.

Yes a dual system can be a cumbersome but obvious solution, OR a hack is to carry a spare hitch cord, and just before you get to your target, slap it onto your climb line. Move your lanyard to your bridge and take a few more steps out. This gives you two points of attachment out of reach from your saw.

Obviously this is more of a single line trick.
But most of the time I will choose to use my lanyard for work positioning, as the rope angle puts my climb line way out of saw range anyway. But I will never call it redundant
Click to expand...
I tend to operate a bit different than most. I always have at least a 20' lanyard with me on a Petzl Zillion. Besides using it for advancing over limbs when climbing, I move the Zillion to a carabiner on my bridge and use it for choking the stem when blocking it down instead of using my climb line. If I go out on a limb, I will choke the stem with it and use it as a second tie in, albeit horizonal. If I am out on a limb working, I am not going to lanyard onto a limb and put myself is a position that is uncomfortable, and mostly that is what it is going to do. Not to mention it really isn't all that safe, as you said.
 
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southsoundtree said:
What species do you work, @WannaClimb?




Be aware of how parts of the tree behind you will rotate over you as the top falls.




I like a top to be cut up the way I want it, then call for the pull.

Before I face-cut, I have a test-pull done by the ground worker.

People want to help. It doesn't mean they know how to help or hinder. Too much pull can split a top. More pull is more recoil of the climber on the spar.

My goal is not to see if they can bend the whole tree, and how much they can bend it. Barring the need for momentum to fight side-lean, the groundworker needs to just rotate the top over the hinge until gravity takes over. Finesse over power.

The more horizontal the line-angle of the pull rope, the less pull it will take from the ground worker.

Installing a high pull-line can be done with a short throw-line and weight, or just a weighted rigging line (Biner and/ or throw weight) thrown through a fork and choked or re-directed down to the bottom of the piece being removed, near the climber (above the cut... in the same vein as a climbing system SRT Basal Anchor).



Wedges don't pull on bad roots like a pre-tensioned pull-line does.

A wedge to back-up a pull rope is an easy safety measure (probably frequently not done).

A Maasdam continuous rope-puller is a great inexpensive tool...Mechanical Advantage with progress capture.

A 2:1 pulley set-up to double your ground worker's pulling power is simple and cheap. (2) 2:1 MA systems, piggybacked is also very cheap, compact, and inexpensive. Bulk hitch cord tied into a friction hitch can be used for a progress capture.

Throwing a small top, instead of rigging by an inexperienced ground worker can be a win.


Beware that all ropes are clear of falling tree parts (a dangling, secured bight on a harness getting caught by falling tree parts, or a thimble/ stopper knot on the end of a lanyard getting caught in a fork, etc).


Always think of the worst case scenario of a rope getting tangled in a moving/ spinning piece of machinery or falling/ rolling wood. Redirecting the excess rope tails (standing ends) laterally away from the active work zone over limbs and fences can be nice.

I like to hang my rigging line with a carabiner on a weak, breakaway cord, not directly on strong parts of my saddle. In time, some company will start to make a breakaway system for hanging gear like they make saw lanyards. A rigging (any) rope, attached strongly to a saddle, going into the chipper is bad news.
Click to expand...
Great info, thanks. Around here it is a lot of mature Leyland Cypress, white oak and red maples.
 
Vicente said:
I disagree with the machine part you're taking a top you shouldn't have to pull that hard and it is much easier to pull to hard without realizing it. A simple 2:1 which we should all have the equipment to set up or a rope puller is all you should ever need for topping imo.
Click to expand...
That’s fair and to each their own.
I work with people I trust and we use comms 90% of the time making the use of a machine to pull comfortable for me. It’s not all about having the extra power. The ability to put a pull in the perfect spot and have it locked off in about two minutes is efficient and less physically taxing for a groundsperson.
 
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