Smaller Retreival Ball Solution

[theatertech87]

For future reference the original antal x ring is available at West Marine in various sizes. You can bring in a rope and see what fits before purchase. They don't carry in does the largest sizes we use, but stuff for up to 9/16ish rope is in stock usually

 

[theatertech87]

Also look at the bottom of the page for sizing and what fits

https://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?item=17195

 

[Jimmycrackcorn]

Also look at the bottom of the page for sizing and what fits

https://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?item=17195

Yes.. thanks..i know about the link.. it's only useful, but only for knowing what will fit through their specific rings.. I'm trying to crossed reference to a degree & there's no actual demension sizes.. No I.D.'s O.D.'s, Channel Size, Overall Widths.. Makes it useless when your trying to compare them to other brands... & they're all different sizes depending on manufacturer.. Some go small ID with a huge overall & others will shave off uneccesarry bulk & make a compromise on MBS. I think the Shizll ones & Seldon ones have the best overall size to hole ratio.. this is just for climbing so i don't want some huge freaking rings.

Basically I want smallest i can safley go, but a solution that will pass a 11.8-12.4 hand splice.. At first all the hand splices were supposed to pass, but now apparently they don't, only their 11mm hand spliced.. Which is just weird as now that I'm looking into it, i see tons of these things being made for friction savers & their all using a smaller 3/4in or 19-20mm Inner hole.. The ppl I'm dealing with are telling me there's no way their 11.8-12.4 hand splices are fitting through there 3/4-19mm ring.. So what that says to me is, none of these ppl splicing them up are using a spliced line bigger than 11mm..?? Why would someone want something that they can't use a splice any larger then that in. It's like.. what, their never going to try another rope? It just seems like that's alot of "custom work" to limit what can & can't be used.. you know what I'm trying to convey? It just doesn't add up..

What i was asking before was if anyone had these smaller rings & if they could indeed pass a typical hand splice on very common rope sizes..

I've found a bunch that will work for what i want, but their all overseas.

 

[Deadwood]

An over hand knot with 10mm cord is a bigger dmm retrieval ball 8mm cord is a smaller one... Try using knotted cordage?

 

[JeffGu]

You're going to overthink this thing until you end up in a rubber room, under sedation, eating the crappy Hungarian Goulash they slid under the door with a plastic spoon because you can't be trusted with a metal one, wearing a canvas jacket with wraparound sleeves and muttering a lot of gibberish about inside diameters and splicing directions.

Are you trying to get a rope anchored in a tree, or making a Ronco commercial for late night TV?
Buy a buttload of aluminum or steel rings off of eBay or Amazon and use whichever ones work. They're so cheap, you can have a couple of them break-tested if you're worried about where they were made. It's called prototyping. Once you have something that works like you want it to, then take a micrometer (a few bucks on Amazon) and measure the I.D. of the rings that work and look for some overpriced, stamped, certified rings for the final version. It's a friction saver.. anbody can learn to splice 12-strand (Tenex) in about five minutes. It will work fine. If you want something else for the rope, then make the final version out of that... but just put something together that works like you want, first.

I've made dozens... literally, dozens... of canopy anchors for SRT, DdRT, rigging... ones that let me install pulleys and all kinds of things from the ground and retrieve them... almost all of them I just prototyped with Tenex-TEC that I had laying around from Bag-O-Rope purchases. There's almost always some kind of 12-strand hollowbraid in them.

I think you're stressing about this too much, and making it harder than it really needs to be.

 

[Jimmycrackcorn]

You're going to overthink this thing until you end up in a rubber room, under sedation, eating the crappy Hungarian Goulash they slid under the door with a plastic spoon because you can't be trusted with a metal one, wearing a canvas jacket with wraparound sleeves and muttering a lot of gibberish about inside diameters and splicing directions.

Are you trying to get a rope anchored in a tree, or making a Ronco commercial for late night TV?
Buy a buttload of aluminum or steel rings off of eBay or Amazon and use whichever ones work. They're so cheap, you can have a couple of them break-tested if you're worried about where they were made. It's called prototyping. Once you have something that works like you want it to, then take a micrometer (a few bucks on Amazon) and measure the I.D. of the rings that work and look for some overpriced, stamped, certified rings for the final version. It's a friction saver.. anbody can learn to splice 12-strand (Tenex) in about five minutes. It will work fine. If you want something else for the rope, then make the final version out of that... but just put something together that works like you want, first.

I've made dozens... literally, dozens... of canopy anchors for SRT, DdRT, rigging... ones that let me install pulleys and all kinds of things from the ground and retrieve them... almost all of them I just prototyped with Tenex-TEC that I had laying around from Bag-O-Rope purchases. There's almost always some kind of 12-strand hollowbraid in them.

I think you're stressing about this too much, and making it harder than it really needs to be.

Hey hey hey! Don't threaten me with a good time..!! Hahahaha.. idk about the goulash.... But Ill happily take the sedation & straight jacket..! Their kinda like a snuggie..!

Your right though.. I'm killing myself over this thing.. Everything was fine.. i had the retrieval part figured out.. That was until the story changed as to what ropes will fit through what..

I honestly wanted to make it all on my own, but at that time i had never preformed a splice yet, so i figured it would be best for them to do it.. then it started getting complicated & some thought & more phone calls were put into it.. in the end I felt bad not going through with it after all the time they gave me. So i said fuck it & gave then my $$.. It wasn't until the story on the fitments changed that I started getting buyers remorse.. All i really want at this point is a Fimble Climb or Fimble Saver style setup as i know they work with splices, they will right..? Or am i losing my mind? Then once i can trust my own splicing, I'll mess around on my own with the rig rings & have a way better selection being able to mix & match.. like you said.. the rings everywhere.. all types.. all sizes.. for probably way less..

They were supposed to call today with what they came up with but i haven't heard from them.. i feel like i should just call up, get my $$ back. I never expected it to get this complicated.. I just thought it would be something different, but functional as they are offering the same exact setup for rigging, but made for use with even larger Husky rope. However the Rings in use are the same.. so is it too be assumed nobody buying the adjustable rig ring saver is using splices in their rigging techniques??? Or they are & their having to feed the entire length through backwards.. (like using a splice with a zig zag) It just doesn't add up to me, that's a ton of extra work if you have to bypass or get around unions when moving your rigging around. It assumes there's nothing you have to move the Rigging FS around, so is it just intended for straight spars if you use splices in your Rigging Ropes? Seems like a that one small ring turns the entire setup into a one trick pony if you have any ropes spliced.

 

[Brocky]

If the saver you have ordered doesn't work out, you might want to try something like these to get bigger openings. Way cheaper than the rings, or DMM's steel thimbles.

 

[theatertech87]

is it too be assumed nobody buying the adjustable rig ring saver is using splices in their rigging techniques??? Or they are & their having to feed the entire length through backwards.. (like using a splice with a zig zag) It just doesn't add up to me, that's a ton of extra work if you have to bypass or get around unions when moving your rigging around. It assumes there's nothing you have to move the Rigging FS around, so is it just intended for straight spars if you use splices in your Rigging Ropes? Seems like a that one small ring turns the entire setup into a one trick pony if you have any ropes spliced.

Well I'm my case I've collected a wide selection of rigging gear and have the option to set a single terminal rigging point that's not mid line attachable but remote retrievable (think abr rig saver, rigging ring and ring, or pulley and biner on a sling) and then have a redirect (or multiple) that are midline attachable (my go to is either an Omni block or a pinto rig) and move those around as I need them. Or set multiple rigging lines and alternate between them.

Yes I use spliced eyes on just about everything, no it doesn't always pull through (glaring at you one blocks). But on those devices I plan accordingly and it becomes the retrieval side, no ball needed

 

[theatertech87]

is it too be assumed nobody buying the adjustable rig ring saver is using splices in their rigging techniques??? Or they are & their having to feed the entire length through backwards.. (like using a splice with a zig zag) It just doesn't add up to me, that's a ton of extra work if you have to bypass or get around unions when moving your rigging around. It assumes there's nothing you have to move the Rigging FS around, so is it just intended for straight spars if you use splices in your Rigging Ropes? Seems like a that one small ring turns the entire setup into a one trick pony if you have any ropes spliced.

Well I'm my case I've collected a wide selection of rigging gear and have the option to set a single terminal rigging point that's not mid line attachable but remote retrievable (think abr rig saver, rigging ring and ring, or pulley and biner on a sling) and then have a redirect (or multiple) that are midline attachable (my go to is either an Omni block or a pinto rig) and move those around as I need them. Or set multiple rigging lines and alternate between them.

Yes I use spliced eyes on just about everything, no it doesn't always pull through (glaring at you one blocks). But on those devices I plan accordingly and it becomes the retrieval side, no ball needed

 

[theatertech87]

I suppose now that you've debated all your options what is your ultimate goal that this piece of gear will do, and we can assist you with (perhaps) something simpler that we've already built and can show pics and or video of

 

[Jimmycrackcorn]

If the saver you have ordered doesn't work out, you might want to try something like these to get bigger openings. Way cheaper than the rings, or DMM's steel thimbles.
View attachment 52263

Yes.. I've been eyeing those style thimbles.. I'm looking for one that i could use on the Cordage i gave you the 20 questions on..lol..[emoji6] That while idea kinda took the back burner once i decided i was going to pay someone in the meantime while i learned splicing. But now it's come to this, so I'm kinda hoping i don't even up with it..

Last i spoke with them they said i could just scratch the whole idea & however it was the first time i actually was able to speak directly with the splicing warehouse, so i figured I'd give them a day or two to work something out with an addition of hardware that was not mentioned to be available when i originally put the idea in motion. They said they would call me back once they got what was needed (other rings were down the road, recently moved warehouses), but i haven't heard a peep.. so i think i just need scratch it all & move on. I need rigging rope so I'll probably put the credit/$$ towards that. Hopefully they don't just make something & send it out without telling me what they have done.

What's weird, is that when i was speaking to them about it, those thimbles above were mentioned.. the splicing guy said they would be too "Flimsy" for what i wanted. I was kinda taken back by it as i wasn't of the same opinion. I don't think their too Flimsy at all. In fact it's what's used in the Fimble Saver / Fimble Climb or whatever it's called & is what i was originally thinking of buying until i got the idea to use rig rings instead

I suppose now that you've debated all your options what is your ultimate goal that this piece of gear will do, and we can assist you with (perhaps) something simpler that we've already built and can show pics and or video of

Hahaha.. ummmm yes.. that's what i want it to do..lol. Although it's changed around in my head quite a bit, what i really want is a one size fits all Friction Saver.. if whatever they are working on isn't made, it's what I'm going to make on my own with a better selection of products. I shouldn't say better.. What i mean is bigger selection of products other than small large & x large... If they had a 22-24mm rig ring or any 1" ID ring for that matter it wouldn't have become such a pain.

However, when it's all said & done... all i really NEED is a cinchable friction saver for a spar. That's it.. I'm just off the mindset that if I'm going to pay someone else to do it, I want it to be custom, maybe a little trick, exactly what i want, no compromises... & that's where it got messy..

Say.. i know it's wildly off topic.. but do you see this little white cord..? You see how stiff it is? How it will stand up on its own? Well way back when, when i was looking for a flipline/lanyard, i was trying to find something as stiff as this stuff for flipping but without the weight of a wire core. The white cord is so stiff it feels like there should be a wire in it, but there isn't, does anyone know what it is? Or if it could be used for that purpose if it was of suitable size? Here it is against some 1/2" T Vee for comparison.

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[theatertech87]

However, when it's all said & done... all i really NEED is a cinchable friction saver for a spar. That's it.. I'm just off the mindset that if I'm going to pay someone else to do it, I want it to be custom, maybe a little trick, exactly what i want, no compromises... & that's where it got messy..

This is definitely the way to go.

Firstly to answer your off topic question.I have no idea what that cordage, though it's behavior kind of reminds me of a waxed thread.

Now for the rest (and while I say "rest" there will probably be some questions following so shall we call it the beginning? Anyways, I am a huge fan of the Tom Hoffman "savers" seen on youtube as a general purpose does it all kind of friction saver. Links to his videos to follow (they're long and may or may not all be worth watching, but in the interest of completeness...)

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4877F03FA11C47E7
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9FE53AFCD19144D5
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD39D4EF42FB8233E

Sold (as far as i can tell) only at treestuff http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=1809&item=9062 though I HIGHLY recommend you get it custom spliced to longer than standard length (8-10 feet finished length is perfect). It does all the stuff you could possibly want from a friction saver.

It's settable from the ground, it's retrievable from a basket or choked configuration, it's retrievable without a retrieval link (configuration dependent), passes a spliced eye, with a couple additional pieces of gear it will form 2 separate isolated anchors, or 1 anchor equalized between 2 locations.

I highly recommend the "rigsaver" over the "usaver" simply because I like the way the rigging ring behaves instead of the way the regular ring behaves on the usaver (otherwise they are functionally identical)

 

[theatertech87]

I find myself not using that very much anymore though. I've since moved to a trunk cinch with a hitch hiker for srt spar work, and where I need/want a friction saver I use something else I've thought up.

As the pictures show below, it's nothing really complicated, but for me it's streamlined and simple. With a girth hitch on the omni and a corner trap on the carabiner, it behaves as 1 piece, so there are less pieces to fiddle with and drop. It's midline attachable so I can use it as a redirect (single or double rope), and it stows on the harness discreetly. If you wish to go down that route I have found that the 40 inch weaver slings found here http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=140&item=438 offer the best compbination of convinient size to reasonable branch diameter.

Some caveats in the interest of full disclosure. While settable from the ground it can be a royal pain, and definitely works best for removals where you spike up to your tie in. The omni block WILL NOT pass a spliced eye through it, though being midline attachable it's not a big deal and the splice will act in lieu of a retrieval ball (again one less thing to drop). Use a steel carabiner, you get noticeable wear if you were to use aluminum.

 

[theatertech87]

Lastly a short video of some of the configurations and retrieval.

Also a bonus clip of using a dmm xcessory carabiner as a retrieval catch for an ART retrieval ball

 

[JeffGu]

Can be installed and retrieved from the ground....

SRT setup:


DdRT setup:


I like the ROOK pulley, but it's redundant in this setup, with the RE swivel shackle. It just happens to be the pulley I like best on it. I usually put another throwline through the pulley during installation so I don't have to drag the climbline through the crotch, then pull the rope through the pulley. On retrieval, I usually pull the rope back out and just bomb it out of the tree, or use the climbline to pull the throwline back through the pulley so I can ease it to the ground, if there is concrete or targets.
In SRT configuration, I have to pull the climbline through the crotch, but the kernmantles I use don't seem to mind, since the rope isn't loaded.

It installs very much like a ring-and-ring friction saver, with a couple of extra steps and things to keep in mind. The retrieval line is attached during installation, and I use either heavy throwline or 1/8" cordage for that.

I've even made a rigging version of this thing using an OmniBlock 2.6 and a really big ring. It's so heavy, I have to use a throwline through the pulley on retrieval because it would probably kill me if it landed on my head.

 

[Jimmycrackcorn]

This is definitely the way to go.

Firstly to answer your off topic question.I have no idea what that cordage, though it's behavior kind of reminds me of a waxed thread.

Now for the rest (and while I say "rest" there will probably be some questions following so shall we call it the beginning? Anyways, I am a huge fan of the Tom Hoffman "savers" seen on youtube as a general purpose does it all kind of friction saver. Links to his videos to follow (they're long and may or may not all be worth watching, but in the interest of completeness...)

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4877F03FA11C47E7
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9FE53AFCD19144D5
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD39D4EF42FB8233E

Sold (as far as i can tell) only at treestuff http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=1809&item=9062 though I HIGHLY recommend you get it custom spliced to longer than standard length (8-10 feet finished length is perfect). It does all the stuff you could possibly want from a friction saver.

It's settable from the ground, it's retrievable from a basket or choked configuration, it's retrievable without a retrieval link (configuration dependent), passes a spliced eye, with a couple additional pieces of gear it will form 2 separate isolated anchors, or 1 anchor equalized between 2 locations.

I highly recommend the "rigsaver" over the "usaver" simply because I like the way the rigging ring behaves instead of the way the regular ring behaves on the usaver (otherwise they are functionally identical)

Well then.... that's quite a bit to digest.. say.. you ever hear of the Rig Saver by Tom Hoffman? [emoji6] That's kinda similar to what i was going for originally when i was paying to have one made..

As versitile as it is, it seems a bit much for small spar work.. I'd probably want two different sizes.. but that's just me.. i want two of everything.

Even though it really expensive for what it is, what i really like is the best ART Snake Tail/Anchor.. I just haven't seen anyone using it in a cinchable retreivalble option.. where you would add a prusik & ring to the tail.

I also kinda like the Buckingham tree-squeeze but it's kinda useless if you use it as a flipline & have to bypass a union or branch. I can't see a way to undo it all & not need another lanyard to stay tied in. But i haven't examined it that hard so i may be wrong.

And you see? This is what happens.. I end up mindfucking each & every one..

Can be installed and retrieved from the ground....

SRT setup:
View attachment 52309

DdRT setup:
View attachment 52310

I like the ROOK pulley, but it's redundant in this setup, with the RE swivel shackle. It just happens to be the pulley I like best on it. I usually put another throwline through the pulley during installation so I don't have to drag the climbline through the crotch, then pull the rope through the pulley. On retrieval, I usually pull the rope back out and just bomb it out of the tree, or use the climbline to pull the throwline back through the pulley so I can ease it to the ground, if there is concrete or targets.
In SRT configuration, I have to pull the climbline through the crotch, but the kernmantles I use don't seem to mind, since the rope isn't loaded.

It installs very much like a ring-and-ring friction saver, with a couple of extra steps and things to keep in mind. The retrieval line is attached during installation, and I use either heavy throwline or 1/8" cordage for that.

I've even made a rigging version of this thing using an OmniBlock 2.6 and a really big ring. It's so heavy, I have to use a throwline through the pulley on retrieval because it would probably kill me if it landed on my head.

Hey Jeff..
I've seen your setup before.. looks pretty neat.. i do have a Rook that I'm trying to find a use for.. I got it as part of Sherril's Rook lanyard.. it never really felt right in that system, yeah it functioned ok, but either i didn't know how to use it correctly or the swivel function for a lanyard pulley just isn't needed. Then i put it on my bride & wasnt really keen on it.. felt like added alot of weight.. acted as a potiential wrecking ball to the family jewels.. then on top of that i don't think i liked how i could roll side to side so easy, but i didn't leave it long enough to get used to the roll..

What else have you used it for? Maybe I'll use mine in this fashion too.

One thing for sure is that theres no shortage of ideas for these!

Oh. Hey.. btw.. can you feel a very small amount of plate in the bearing by grabbing the rig plate & twisting side to side?

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[Jehinten]

.

Even though it really expensive for what it is, what i really like is the best ART Snake Tail/Anchor.. I just haven't seen anyone using it in a cinchable retreivalble option.. where you would add a prusik & ring to the tail.


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Without ever having held one in hand, that seems easy enough to do. Push a bite through the ring and clip into it with a carabiner and pulley/rings that will pass through the ring. Then a smaller clip at the end of the tail for retrieval

 

[JeffGu]

@Jimmycrackcorn ... yeah, they have a small amount of play in there. This has come up before, if I remember correctly, on the forums. There has to be a little bit of slop in there for it to work, and I've personally never had any problem with them. I have two of them with the ROOK label and one with the HYDRA label, and they all feel about the same as far as bearing preload goes.

 

[Jimmycrackcorn]

@Jimmycrackcorn ... yeah, they have a small amount of play in there. This has come up before, if I remember correctly, on the forums. There has to be a little bit of slop in there for it to work, and I've personally never had any problem with them. I have two of them with the ROOK label and one with the HYDRA label, and they all feel about the same as far as bearing preload goes.

Right on.. makes sense.. i just figured I'd feel the play after years of use not right out of the box so i wanted to play it on the safe side..

Can you use the becket on these things? Like.. with webbing or something that will fit through? I wonder why they didn't make the opening bigger, I wish they did.

 

[Jimmycrackcorn]

Without ever having held one in hand, that seems easy enough to do. Push a bite through the ring and clip into it with a carabiner and pulley/rings that will pass through the ring. Then a smaller clip at the end of the tail for retrieval

Yup.. or you could do it like that.
ART has another friction saver now that I've just recently seen.. it's called the LightAnchor or something like that.. you can pass the small ring through the big one if you want.

That's what i like about ART, they try really hard to make their Rope products versitile, multipurposed.. I just dont get the difference between the Snake Tail & Snake Anchor.. Yes one had a different material & is longer, but why not just use that same material & offer different sizes, then make the additional prusik an option. Idk.. just seems like two different product names for something almost identical makes purchasing one or the other a harder decision.. that's my only beef..


Oh & btw, for the rest of the thread participants, i cancelled the order & used the credit towards a 12 strand rigging line. I've never used 12 strand solid braid/core, whatever it's called.. this way i don't have to worry about abraiding the line natural crotching for the time being. Once i get this Friction device under my belt I'll probably make one dedicated to Rigging. But I'm the time being, i figured 12 would be a better bet.


Anyhow, it looks like I'm back to square one with the FS for the climbing side of things. I'm currently trying to splice some different eyes up to see which way I'm going to go. I also ordered some rigging rings, yes... I made sure to go with two different sizes..lol. Sizes that land in a more splice friendly size... 25mm ID & a 22-23mm ID.. so i got those & plenty of other hardware, rings & devices. So keep the versatile cinchable ideas coming.

Oh & before i forget.. thinking about the Rook.. Would it be an acceptable practice to use some 8mm cordage (if it fit) to run through the two of the three holes at reach end of the pulley & tie them off with a stopper. In essence forming a loop prusik with a pulley on it in the case i wanted to use it as a pully saver style setup? What's nice is that you could just undo the knots & use it elsewhere for your needs.. no permenant splices to keep you from using it elsewhere.

 

[Jehinten]

Not sure on the rook/pulley saver. The rook has rubber grommets built in to help hold a carabiner that may be damaged by loading and unloading the cordage. You would have to decide if that is acceptable. The pinto pulley may be a better option, with the pinto rig being a more efficient pulley.