should a ground guy wear

Yeah, we will not agree on this. I find it interesting when someone say I HAVE BEEN DOING THIS FOR 24 YEARS.....BLA BLA BLA. That means nothing. How long had Dale Earnhardt been racing, how much experience did he have? Where did he end up?
 
Come on. Racing cars has a lot of outside forces and Dale Earndart or any racer would never claim they will never crash. Bad example totally different. Your response is exactly what I predicted in my 1st post. 24 years does mean something not BLA BLA BLA. Please answer my question though give me an example of an outside force that causes you to run the saw into your legs. And I do agree with you about other safety issues but what your saying here is that the saw can be outside your control at times and I don't get that. Experience does count in this profession bla bla bla tells me you have no where near that kind of time in this. Have a good day.
 
owScott said:
give me an example of an outside force that causes you to run the saw into your legs
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Are you saying every tree you've ever cut has behaved exactly the way you expect? You've never had one twist on you, or rise up when you expected it to settle, or a bent over one under more tension than you think that pops up and smacks the saw? Ever lose your footing and slip while standing on a wet rainy hillside doing storm damage?

I'm pretty good at reading trees and always careful about the "What ifs...", but it's not the "I ve been at this 24 years, and climb every day and have never ran the saw into my legs" situations that worry me. It's the one single time that things don't go exactly as planned, and my climbing/running/skiing days are over.
 
owScott said:
24 years does mean something
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24 years of what? The first year repeated another 23 times? 24 years of progressive development and learning? I've not cut myself with my chainsaw however I was not allowed to run a saw with protection on. It became the norm. I chose pants over chaps because they're more comfortable. So, lets stop using the overheating in chaps argument. Pants solve that as does proper heat management that goes beyond drinking more water.

We are dealing with a broad spectrum of skills, experience, attitudes, pressures and environments that each year lead to a consistent number of accidents involving chainsaws. That there are individuals that have not had any injuries through a long career is a testament to them but not a representation of the industry. We have training programs for proper and safe handling of chainsaws, proper body positioning, etc… Yet, we still have those accidents. Thus, the requirement for protective garb. Unfortunately making regs voluntary or full of exceptions ends up making them ineffective. While training and proper evaluation of that training is the best way to go, as has been the experience touted here, it is also the one that's most difficult to assess and monitor to ensure compliance. Also, the industry is still light years away from being a truly professional one with a minimum standard that includes mandatory training and evaluation for competency before entering the field.
 
Jeff said:
Are you saying every tree you've ever cut has behaved exactly the way you expect? You've never had one twist on you, or rise up when you expected it to settle, or a bent over one under more tension than you think that pops up and smacks the saw? Ever lose your footing and slip while standing on a wet rainy hillside doing storm damage?

I'm pretty good at reading trees and always careful about the "What ifs...", but it's not the "I ve been at this 24 years, and climb every day and have never ran the saw into my legs" situations that worry me. It's the one single time that things don't go exactly as planned, and my climbing/running/skiing days are over.
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Nowhere in any post have I said every tree that I have cut has behaved exactly the way I expected. Just the opposite , let me say it again, when these examples you gave happen , because of good body position , proper cutting technique ,and understanding of saw dynamics I don't run the saw into my legs. More time doing something successfully does mean something. When somebody says 24 years with no accidents means nothing ,and they have replaced 5 pairs of chaps in 1 year something is wrong. Some of these guys are so safe they are dangerous. I value my climbing , biking ,and skiing also. Thank you for responding to my direct question though and I wish you safe work days and continued good climbing, running , and skiing days:guitarra:
 
@owScott I appreciate your calm, clear and detailed answer. You do bring up good points. But I will confess that I clearly am not as self aware and controlled as you aware. When I'm tired, drenched in sweat and partially dehydrated, and pushing for time to complete the job (in other words, S.O.P.) my body position, cutting techniques and understanding of saw dynamics seems to degrade. Call me human, but it does affect my performance.

24 years accident free does mean something, but I'm still worried about #25. Which is why I wore my chaps today. Didn't end up needing them, as usual, but given the streak of bad luck I was having today, it wouldn't have surprised me. Now I'm off to Treebay, to replace today's blown-out-crotch pants, shredded long sleeve shirt (briars), burst throw ball (landed on a saw bar) and crushed Stihl 460 (tree split). :muyenojado: How's that for accidents, @LimbLoppa ?
 
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Jeff said:
@owScott I appreciate your calm, clear and detailed answer. You do bring up good points. But I will confess that I clearly am not as self aware and controlled as you aware. When I'm tired, drenched in sweat and partially dehydrated, and pushing for time to complete the job (in other words, S.O.P.) my body position, cutting techniques and understanding of saw dynamics seems to degrade. Call me human, but it does affect my performance.

24 years does mean something, but I'm still worried about #25. Which is why I wore my chaps today. Didn't end up needing them, as usual, but given the streak of bad luck I was having today, it wouldn't have surprised me. Now I'm off to Treebay, to replace today's blown-out-crotch pants, shredded long sleeve shirt (briars), burst throw ball (landed on a saw bar) and crushed Stihl 460 (spar split). :muyenojado: How's that for accidents, @LimbLoppa ?
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Hey, Jeff, great post. Sorry about the really tough day. At the risk of a mild derail, I was wondering if you could explain in more detail how your Stihl 460 was crushed by a splitting spar? Hopefully you were attached to the spar in a way that avoided the "circle of death", or working out of a bucket. So, was the saw struck hard by half of a splitting stem, or was it that the saw got pinned by pressure and essentially torn apart? Those are the only two things I can think of, but maybe it was something else.

Thanks in advance for any answers you choose to give to my questions, Jeff.

Tim
 
LimbLoppa said:
My money says a ground guy was involved...
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Yup - me! Working by myself, had an ugly dieing backyard sugar maple to remove. Easy flop away from the house with the majority of the weight going that way, except for the healed vertical crack in the trunk. Not that it would have hit the house, but I wanted all of it in the backyard and not 1/3 of it in the side yard if it did decide to split.

Prudence said climb and dismantle that third, or set a pull line in it and use it to force the entire tree over. But feeling pressured for time, I just hopped in it and tied it to the other side , thinking the 2/3 mass would pull the 1/3 with it. But I tied them too low, so when it did split completely during the back cut, the 1/3 side inverted itself on my rope and crushed the saw, still in the cut, against the standing 2/3. Read it correctly, anticipated the problem, and still walked headlong into it, all to save an hour. :hueco:
 
Jeff said:
Yup - me! Working by myself, had an ugly dieing backyard sugar maple to remove. Easy flop away from the house with the majority of the weight going that way, except for the healed vertical crack in the trunk. Not that it would have hit the house, but I wanted all of it in the backyard and not 1/3 of it in the side yard if it did decide to split.

Prudence said climb and dismantle that third, or set a pull line in it and use it to force the entire tree over. But feeling pressured for time, I just hopped in it and tied it to the other side , thinking the 2/3 mass would pull the 1/3 with it. But I tied them too low, so when it did split completely during the back cut, the 1/3 side inverted itself on my rope and crushed the saw, still in the cut, against the standing 2/3. Read it correctly, anticipated the problem, and still walked headlong into it, all to save an hour. :hueco:
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Thanks for this answer, Jeff. As is frequently the case, I'm finding it hard to understand clearly a description of something involving spatial relationships. It almost sounds like the butt end of the barberchaired 1/3rd did a complete flip; but that doesn't seem like a correct interpretation, because you say the saw got crushed while still in the cut. I guess I'm picturing a lot of mass (in the 1/3rd split, at the butt) moving a short distance in an unexpected direction, basically pinning the saw hard. The idea that the whole 1/3 just completely flipped over, basically doing a 360 degree turn and smashing back down again, seems unlikely. Also, if that happened, I'd have thought you might have had a close call yourself.

Sorry for my lack of understanding, and thank you for your honest answers up to this point. These kinds of discussions help to keep us all alive.

One thing I was wondering is whether or not using multiple cinching tie-down type of straps along the entire length of the split stem might help to keep things together in such a situation? Gotta have them available, of course.

Thanks for your time and trouble, and in advance for any further comments you care to make.

Tim
 
TimBr said:
The idea that the whole 1/3 just completely flipped over, basically doing a 360 degree turn and smashing back down again, seems unlikely.
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No, no 360°, more like 120°, but a large branch on the side was low enough after the flip to crunch the saw.

TimBr said:
One thing I was wondering is whether or not using multiple cinching tie-down type of straps along the entire length of the split stem might help to keep things together in such a situation?
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Yes, binding a split stem can be a good option in some situations. I wouldn't have done it in this case, as it would have required as much effort to do that as it would have to just climb and dismantle. Or just accept the fact that 1/3 of it was going to be in the side yard, so bore cut it and lay them in opposite directions. Cheap, easy choices in hindsight.
 
@Jeff; I have so much to learn, thanks for your answers and your patience with me. How would doing a bore cut have worked in this instance? Would this act like doing two separate felling operations, one for each half of the tree? Bore twice, trip twice? I guess I need to spend a lot more time in the "Rigging and Roping" section of the forum, where I presume they would discuss felling techniques most often.

Thanks again for everything.

Tim
 
Thanks, @ classictruckman. So if I'm understanding right, he makes his notch as normal on the side he wants the tree to fall to, and only bore cuts the backcut in order to try to maintain some wood holding the whole tree together at the area where a backcut would normally begin? Then try to step back as far as possible while you just barely nip at that last bit of wood at the back of the tree, and then quickly retreat to a safe location as the tree falls? Is this correct? Thanks in advance for the help in understanding.

Tim
 
@classictruckman, Oh, ok, thanks for that. I was thinking of it backwards. And the 2/3rds would just slide past the 1/3rd somehow, or possibly knock it over on the way down, either of which is ok?

Thanks again for your time.

Tim
 
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