should a ground guy wear

@Jeff, thanks for posting those images, and no, I've never seen an image of a Mar-Bar before.

The piece of gear the man I mentioned was using incorporated the use of a triangular step similar to the top one of the two depicted in your photos. The difference was, instead of having the toothed ascender so slickly attached to the frame of the triangle, as shown in your photo, the climber in question just attached the triangle to the bottom of a doubled up set of hand ascenders via a webbing strap, I believe. I think he basically bolted a left and a right handed hand ascender together, side by side, somehow. I did not get a good or a long look at the device.

Tim
 
Home made Mar bar. I have one I made a while back. It was the beginning of the evolution of srt in tree work. I know a lot of guys made their own because the Mar bar was pricey.
 
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TheCiscoKid said:
Nobody at my company wears chaps. We have a pair of Stihls in the truck. I tried to get myself into the habit of wearing them (more so for preserving my pants rather than legs), they're just uncomfortable after awhile-especially when it's hot. How do saw pants compare to chaps? Are they comfortable in your saddle? Are they really warm?
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The pants aren't bad. They will be warmer, but I find them much better than chaps. I do HIGHLY recommend using some form of chainsaw protection. My foot saw the business end of a 460 a few years ago, and though chaps won't stop that, they will prevent worse injury. Mine was minor because it was mostly skin and bone. Legs have lots of things that don't need to be severed.
 
I've always worn pants. The chaps are just too loose and it doubles up on what you're wearing. Chaps on top of your regular work pants would be hotter than just chainsaw pants. Besides, it's hot doing our job period. What little the pants add is meaningless. The discomfort of the injury and the crap you'll go through while recovering is far more uncomfortable. Not to mention the loss of sensation at the injury site.
 
@southsoundtree; Is there any one thing or a couple of things that you do in your instruction of employees that you think accounts for this tremendous safety record? Thanks in advance for any answers you choose to give.

Tim
 
ROYCE said:
I have replaced 5 pairs of chaps in the last year from small cuts. I would much rather replace the chaps than the alternative. BUT, it is a little frustrating. I as the employer have to supply these for my guys.
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Man, you saying your guys hit their legs 5 times with a chainsaw in the last year or am I misreading this? If so you need to have some work positioning mandatories.
 
treevet said:
Man, you saying your guys hit their legs 5 times with a chainsaw in the last year or am I misreading this? If so you need to have some work positioning mandatories.
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No, I have replaced 5 pairs of chaps in the last year. Not all from the same guy. I know at least one pair was destroyed when the outer layer was caught on briars and ripped. Then the inside nylon got caught on stuff as well. I just replaced them because they looked rough.
 
Never wore a pair of chaps and never will. I want to put a hidden cam on you guys on a 100 degree day with high humidity on a busy big td day. I can't imagine ever putting a saw into my leg unless I was doing something REAL stupit.

Keep the damn saw away from your body by saw positioning and body positioning and give the chaps to the faux motorcycle tough guys...0f8066a25a4b9cbeada9bee0443cac3d.webp
 
We deal in numbers for the sake of individuals. You may go a whole lifetime without ever cutting yourself but that is just an anomaly not a statistical fact. Chaps are hot since you wear them over your jeans or climbing pants. Sure, might as well throw on a pair of thermal long johns while you're at it. Chainsaw pants are marginally warmer. On a 100º day you're going to be hot no matter what you wear or don't wear, that is just another safety issue, heat management.

As for an accident actually happening, nobody would argue that it wasn't something stupid or, more technically, a lapse of attention or judgement. When we as an industry reduce the number of accidents by merely safe work practices and the consistent application of good judgement then maybe we don't need all this PPE. But in the meantime.....
 
Anomaly? I think not. The anomaly is the chainsaw wound. Were more saw/body positioning work seminars and ojt monitoring emphasized the need to cover one in a knight's suit of armour on a 100 degree would become a non issue. Many profit hungry owners send out novice green laborers with a chainsaw in their hands and directions only how to start them and not hit the ground.

I give perpetual on job lessons and should I notice the slightest straying to my cutting edicts they are scolded. One cuts for hours on the lot wood pile while I observe prior to being allowed to do things on their own. The covering of the legs is just an invitation to be lax in your technique maybe and likely results in a non covered cut in the hands, ankles, arms, face etc because of laxness.

I picture Oldirty so proud in his chaps but with no covering from the tips of his fingers to the tops of his shoulders with cut off t's.

Chaps add significantly to worker's deterioration in extreme heat conditions faced in a majority of the operating calendar. You just cannot drink enough to maintain and still complete tasks imo.
 
treevet said:
Never wore a pair of chaps and never will. I want to put a hidden cam on you guys on a 100 degree day with high humidity on a busy big td day. I can't imagine ever putting a saw into my leg unless I was doing something REAL stupit.

Keep the damn saw away from your body by saw positioning and body positioning and give the chaps to the faux motorcycle tough guys...View attachment 37406
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I agree. I know peoples argument will be just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it will not happen. Hard hats , eye protection etc. protect us from falling objects and such out of our control, but hitting your leg with a saw is 100% avoidable 100% of the time. Makes me crazy after getting out of a tree from a big removal with a big saw and being told to put chaps on for the ground. This is an attention to detail profession , so if you cant keep the saw off your legs wear the chaps , but seems to me there will be other problems relating to the lack of attention to detail. I am not bagging on anyone who wishes to wear them , so nobody should get on me for being confident and skilled enough to keep the saw off me body. Furthermore in my opinion this profession has grown so much , when I started it was well understood that tree work is very dangerous and this understanding made you very careful. Now days , with arbor master training and such , we have created a world where a lot of people think they can do this , but flat out shouldn't. I and many of us on this site climb dead and dangerous trees and run saws close to our body regularly and we understand there is no replacement for skill and judgment.
 
treevet said:
Anomaly? I think not. The anomaly is the chainsaw wound. Were more saw/body positioning work seminars and ojt monitoring emphasized the need to cover one in a knight's suit of armour on a 100 degree would become a non issue. Many profit hungry owners send out novice green laborers with a chainsaw in their hands and directions only how to start them and not hit the ground.

I give perpetual on job lessons and should I notice the slightest straying to my cutting edicts they are scolded. One cuts for hours on the lot wood pile while I observe prior to being allowed to do things on their own. The covering of the legs is just an invitation to be lax in your technique maybe and likely results in a non covered cut in the hands, ankles, arms, face etc because of laxness.

I picture Oldirty so proud in his chaps but with no covering from the tips of his fingers to the tops of his shoulders with cut off t's.

Chaps add significantly to worker's deterioration in extreme heat conditions faced in a majority of the operating calendar. You just cannot drink enough to maintain and still complete tasks imo.
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Really interesting post, treevet, thanks for sharing this point of view. I think maybe you could make a good living just by touring and providing such instruction to groups of chainsaw operators, one company at a time. A side business, maybe? Or something to do after you've hung up the gaffs, maybe.

Tim
 
TheCiscoKid said:
Nobody at my company wears chaps. We have a pair of Stihls in the truck. I tried to get myself into the habit of wearing them (more so for preserving my pants rather than legs), they're just uncomfortable after awhile-especially when it's hot. How do saw pants compare to chaps? Are they comfortable in your saddle? Are they really warm?
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Stitches are very uncomfortable too.
 
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owScott said:
I agree. I know peoples argument will be just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it will not happen. Hard hats , eye protection etc. protect us from falling objects and such out of our control, but hitting your leg with a saw is 100% avoidable 100% of the time. Makes me crazy after getting out of a tree from a big removal with a big saw and being told to put chaps on for the ground. This is an attention to detail profession , so if you cant keep the saw off your legs wear the chaps , but seems to me there will be other problems relating to the lack of attention to detail. I am not bagging on anyone who wishes to wear them , so nobody should get on me for being confident and skilled enough to keep the saw off me body. Furthermore in my opinion this profession has grown so much , when I started it was well understood that tree work is very dangerous and this understanding made you very careful. Now days , with arbor master training and such , we have created a world where a lot of people think they can do this , but flat out shouldn't. I and many of us on this site climb dead and dangerous trees and run saws close to our body regularly and we understand there is no replacement for skill and judgment.
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I disagree. You are never 100% in control of your situation. And even if you think you are 100% in control of your situation its the outside forces that are acting on you that you can not control, no matter how good you are. You can not tell me that 100% of the time everything in the tree goes EXACTLY the way you planned it to happen. It just doesn't happen like that. The chaps are there to protect you from the outside forces more than they are from you.
I prefer not to play Russian Roulette everyday I got to work. Also, I have people who look up to me and I have a duty to be a good example to them. If they see me working with out chaps what message does that send. If your truly good at what you so I am sure you have ground guys and novice climber who look up to you. You owe it to them to instill a cultural of safety. It could save their lives if not yours!
 
treevet said:
Could those "outside forces" include heat prostration contributed to by wearing of chaps in high humidity heat on a strenuous job?
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I would say yes. I think it does include the heat and humidity. But with a proper job briefing that could be mitigated as well. Depending on the job on the calendar for that day.
 
ROYCE said:
I disagree. You are never 100% in control of your situation. And even if you think you are 100% in control of your situation its the outside forces that are acting on you that you can not control, no matter how good you are. You can not tell me that 100% of the time everything in the tree goes EXACTLY the way you planned it to happen. It just doesn't happen like that. The chaps are there to protect you from the outside forces more than they are from you.
I prefer not to play Russian Roulette everyday I got to work. Also, I have people who look up to me and I have a duty to be a good example to them. If they see me working with out chaps what message does that send. If your truly good at what you so I am sure you have ground guys and novice climber who look up to you. You owe it to them to instill a cultural of safety. It could save their lives if not yours!
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The only force I am talking about is controlling the saw. I cant think of a saw accident scenario where there could be any outside force other than user error. Your response is addressing the big picture I am only talking about hitting your body with the saw .My post addresses forces outside our control by wear ppe and other precautions. But again , I am in control of the saw %100 , %100 of the time. please explain to me what outside force exactly causes you to run the saw into your leg? Outside forces are trees falling over, limbs braking , weather, rot in the wood that effect how things will hinge etc. Royce I don't want to sound disrespectful, but I ve been at this 24 years, and climb every day and have never ran the saw into my legs and you have replaced 5 pairs of chaps in 1 year. Seems what your crew is learning is that you can be sloppy with the saw because , no worries I got chaps on. What my crew learns from me is correct body positioning, saw control, and good cutting technics. We have different view points here and that's cool, and after trying to understand your post I would say YOU should wear your chaps and cheers fellow arborist:rock:
 
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