Re: Sherrill\'s PI splice
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from banjo:This came from Sherrill, they spliced it. What do you think.
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I think there might be 2 separate issues here. The herniation of the core through the cover in the eye and the taper job on the splice.
I see core herniation happen for 2 reasons. 1 is that (as has already been said) there is "too much" core and it sorta works its way out. The other is that the cover in the eye spreads itself open. I can't tell for sure which is the case here. I've had it happen on the fatter beeline, but never on Blaze (11mm or the 11.7mm versions like Blue Moon or Poison Ivy), Tachyon, or Velocity.
The splice should be fixed or retired fo sho.
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from JeffL:...the bury on double braids is shorter because of the amount of grab you get with the core doubled up on itself or something to that affect? Dont quote me on that.
My PI is also showing a puff of core at the eye as well. Should this really be cause for concern? Retire the line, or not be too worried about a single core strand poking through the cover?
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Jeff, can you post a pic of your rope, too? If it were my rope, I'd be inclined to undo the whipping, anchor the rope and reef on the splice and see if the prob fixed itself.
You said (Jim said, actually) that the double braid tails can be shorter. Shorter than what? When compared to single braid, yes they can be a lot shorter because there is a lot more compression in the splice. If you (Jim) were suggesting that since there was more tension we can short cut the manufacturer's instructions...I would urge against that mindset!
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from banjo:...Definitely not yale double braid class 1 specs. I've heard about Sherrill having their own "special" way of splicing PI.
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You're right. The splice you've shown pics of is in NO way compliant with the manufacturer's
direections (as encouraged/required by ANSI)that they show on their website. However, Sherrill is not the average rope splicer. They have a full time splicing department. They have a full testing bed on site. They assign a serial number to every splice they do. They have the opportunity to really test the manufacturer's directions and possibly come up with even better ones. We all don't know, but there is a POSSIBILITY that even though Yale recommends we use the splicing directions I linked to above, they might also "allow" other things to be done under the right circumstances.
At a first glance, the pictures look, to me, like a splicer was taking a short cut and making their splice run home easier my shortening the core tail. I sure hope that isn't the case.
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from banjo: Slightly different situation here. Poison Ivy is a proprietary product made for Sherrill by Yale. Yale doesn't want to/can't talk about it. I called Sherrill and asked if they were doing any splices differently from manufacturer specs and they said "no". I don't believe that based on what I can see.
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Exactly. The pictures show splices that very drastically from the mfrs specs.
My bet is that the black/green color combo is the proprietary part of Poison Ivy. My GUESS (just a hunch) is that the weave is the same as the other 11.7mm double braid climbing lines made by Yale (Blue Moon and Limelite, the neon one from Bishop)
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from rangerdanger:This is happening with Dads PI also. Bought it around 2005.
The other thing I have heard is that Yale Products tend to do this sort of thing more than others
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John, have you seen this in all yale ropes? I've had a couple probs with the fatter Beeline (which Yale no longer sells spliced version of!) but is it an overstatement to say "Yale products tend to do this more than others?"
Full disclosure: Yale is my fave rope, so I get defensive! But I genuinely want to know if there is a broader prob here.
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from RookieClimber:this is why i started splicing all my own rope tools
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Me, too.
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from RookieClimber:Norm has been a big help in my splicing
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Me, too.
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from RookieClimber: I would like to see a separate splicing forum.
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Me, too. The splicing threads are mixed in all the other forums.
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from Tobe_Sherrill:We follow the rope manufacturers recommendations (which are occasionally different for certain ropes).
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Tobe, if that is true, then there is definitely a prob. This splice (and others I have dissected on my own...we've talked about in the past...) is NOT to spec, nor even near it.
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from Tobe_Sherrill:It's not splitting, rather the cover strands are parting due to the acute bend of the tight eye...this poses no safety issue because both core and jacket are still in full support of the spliced eye.
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I do not believe this to be true. In the splice pictured with this post, yes, I'd climb on that to finish the day. But I'd also order a new rope as soon as I got to the truck. To say it poses no safety issue is just too nice.
Herniation happens either slowly over time or all at once immediately when the piece is put in to use. To me (and I could be wrong) but to me this splice looks like one where the strands are opening slowly over time. This will continue to happen (I'm guessing). If it does, like shown in the picture, the cover will open up more to the point where the core is holding most/all of the load. Not only that, the majority of the compression in the splice comes from the tension on the eye pulling down on the throat of the splice. If you lose the tension on the eye, you lose the compression in the splice.
Herniated splices should be retired.
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from banjo:Would some of you other guys who are experiencing the problem send the splices to Sherrill so they can check it out? Please.
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PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DO THIS!!! It sounds like this is a more all-encompassing problem. I think we'd all stand a lot to gain if people would also post pics of the ropes they are having probs with. If you don't want to post it, please email me
nick@splicesbynick.com and I'll post it for you anonymously.
This is the type of situation where the manufacturer, retailer, and customer all stand a LOT to gain if progress can be made.
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from Norm_Hall:OK, thanks.
If they choose to do a shorter bury, it has to be included in the whip-lock.
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True.
In my opinion, there is a lot of room for reduction in the lengths of the core or cover tails in double braid climbing lines (tachyon, blaze, PI, velocity, etc). Only break testing and field use can confirm this, but I also think that the splice in question has a tail that is WAYYYYYY too short. What was it? 2" I think. The throat of the splice just looks wrong.
Tobe, not that I'm rope ambassador of treebuzz or anything, but thank you for your presence here. You've always been very level headed and fair here.
In my opinion, the herniating core is something that can just happen, and it not a HUGE problem. It sounds like you're all set to get this guy his rope replaced. The bigger problem is overall quality control. You're telling us that you stick with the manufacturer's directions, but the pictures tell the opposite story.
I am also in the business of selling rope. I know the importance of the customer trusting the splicer. I am lucky because I am the only splicer in my operation here. You're in a position to create a lot of great things for people, but at the end of the day, the customer needs to know that all t's and i's have been crossed and dotted.
Great thread! I'm sorry I found it so late!
love
nick
