Setting trunk-cinched TIP from ground

[LordFarkwad]

It seems like what I'm closing in on trying at the moment, is basal-anchoring on what looks like a good TIP, testing it statically with 2x my weight (been using a short section of rope and a CMI micro to set up a little 2:1 at the tail of my line, another technique that Mumford demonstrates in one of his videos), then rope walking straight up to the TIP while flipping a lanyard as Mumford suggests, and then converting the basal to a spar cinch (lanyard in, transfer weight to lanyard, pull slack in line, tie AB on 'down leg' to basal anchor, use quick link to clip basal side loop to climbing side forming the choke/cinch, transfer weight back to climbing side), and advancing it up the trunk somehow (unsure how at the moment - convert over to entirely separate shorter climb line when I'm canopy and just advance while bringing the main line with me until I get to where I wish to set it??).

For descent and subsequent retrieval (assume no redirects), I think I could leave the cinch in place, and upon reaching the ground, undo the basal anchor, pull the basal side of the line down until the AB and associated hardware reaches me, undo the AB/hardware cinch, then grab the other end of the rope (which I had previously been climbing on) and pull it all back up and out of the tree. ?

I believe this will check most of my boxes for at least feeling a little more secure while ascending, descending, and moving around.

But, we'll see.

Thank you sharing your knowledge and experience with me, guys. And the same goes to those of you who have shared with me over PM as I've contacted you directly. I really appreciate it.

 

[LordFarkwad]

This usually only works if there are no limbs below the small target limb and won't work with a truly limbless spar.

Won't work with no limbs unless there's substantial lean (as someone mentioned above), I guess.

I'm tracking with you on your method there, BB. It wouldn't be an issue if the cinch encompassed multiple limbs though, right?

The more I think about converting a basal-anchored TIP to a canopy anchor and advancing it up the spar, it seems like I definitely need access to the tail of the line on the climbing side (meaning, I can't do like I have done for the last few climbs and have ~130' of line on the climbing side sitting in a bucket at the bottom, because it's going to be a major pain to haul that much tail over once I reach where I want the PSP to be and choke it). Make sense?

 

[Chaplain242]

Won't work with no limbs unless there's substantial lean (as someone mentioned above), I guess.

I'm tracking with you on your method there, BB. It wouldn't be an issue if the cinch encompassed multiple limbs though, right?

The more I think about converting a basal-anchored TIP to a canopy anchor and advancing it up the spar, it seems like I definitely need access to the tail of the line on the climbing side (meaning, I can't do like I have done for the last few climbs and have ~130' of line on the climbing side sitting in a bucket at the bottom, because it's going to be a major pain to haul that much tail over once I reach where I want the PSP to be and choke it). Make sense?

Can basal tie with alpine butterfly to cut down the amount of rope being used on the climbing side - just don't go too short, make allowance for the highest TIP of the Basal system if using base tie for the entire climb.

 

[Benjo75]

This may be what Bob Bob was talking about, not sure. I have in the past, throw the throwline over the first lowest limb, once it's back to the ground, put a biner through the ring on the throwbag. Take your climbline and place it around the tree laying on the ground with your tieoff of choice. The throwbag is behind the tree and your climbline is on the front 180 degrees to the throwbag. Connect the climbline with to biner. Leave the loop of the climbline loose and hang on to both ends of the loop. As you pull the throwbag up continue to hang on to both ends of the loop of climbline. Once the throwbag reaches the limb, turn loose of the cinching knot of your throwline and whip and flip the climbline as you pull the knot tight. If the tree is smooth it will cinch just below the first limb. Your throwline will remain attached until you reach the cinch and unclip it.

I used to do this setting a pull line on rotten pines to pull them over. Sometimes the first limb would be 50 ft and I only wanted the pull line tied at 30 ft due to a rotten top. I saw somewhere a few years ago where someone used this method to set a climbline in palm trees. They threw a line over the top then pulled their climbline to the bottom of the fronds then pulled it tight.

 

[southsoundtree]

(Skimmed thread).

Graeme McMahon's lowerable base-tie Article in theTreeBuzz Articles section.

So easy, a picture or several can easily show it.

Personally, I too often have too much tree to deal with everyday to overcomplicate stuff (for a few minutes, I considered Grcs'ing a tree, but three-strand and natural crotch rigging was quicker, easier, and so minimalist.




I will set a running bowline over a weak stub, up a tree, by doubling a throw line through the rb loop. I can keep tension on the rope, counter-tensioned by the throw line, adjusting as I go, and always able to retrieve and reset.

Once the RB is tested to choke effectively, I remove the throw line.

A bad choke on a vertical stem on a stub can drop you like a rock, if the stub fails. BEWARE!! Test it like you mean it.

Working the choke if the RB up tightly is easier with flatter line angles (stand back from a vertical trunk).

Less vertical trunks are easier.

 

[LordFarkwad]

As you pull the throwbag up continue to hang on to both ends of the loop of climbline. Once the throwbag reaches the limb, turn loose of the cinching knot of your throwline and whip and flip the climbline as you pull the knot tight.

Thanks allot, Ben. Just to make sure I'm understanding, are you effectively hoisting up the back half of a loop of climb line that is getting progressively larger as you hoist due to hanging on to the part where the line goes through itself? And then, when the back of the loop is at the desired height, you allow the running part of the cinch to travel up the line and come the trunk?

I will set a running bowline over a weak stub, up a tree, by doubling a throw line through the rb loop. I can keep tension on the rope, counter-tensioned by the throw line, adjusting as I go, and always able to retrieve and reset.

Always appreciative of your feedback, south. The attachment of the throwline to the RB loop is simply to allow you to tension the climbing side of the line out from the tree (forming a more perpendicular angle with the trunk) without having the cinch run up and choke, leaving the front of the loop you're hanging off of drooping down the front of the tree, correct?

A bad choke on a vertical stem on a stub can drop you like a rock, if the stub fails. BEWARE!! Test it like you mean it.

The best case configuration for the loop itself is straight across the trunk (that is, not sagging or drooping down where the climbing side of the line comes through the bowline's loop), right? Do you ever, when you are setting this up on a near limbless spar, intentionally position your body such that the tension you are applying to the climb line is in the direction that pulls the cinch tighter?

Went out and climbed a little today, and spent so much time trying to set the throw line, that it is making me consider just putting 4 or 5 good sets up permanently, just so I can go grab one of the preset throw lines and pull a climb line into the tree at the drop of a hat for some practice. Only thing making me reconsider is that I need allot of practice throwing the bag, which having preset line would diminish.

Other thing that was cool, but I'm not sure how often it can be expected to happen, is that when I was tossing the throw bag for the trillionth time in preparation to set a basal, it ended up going over some good limbs and having a decent amount of residual swing, which I was then able to utilize to more-or-less wrap the throw line 3/4 around the tree relatively near the highest limb the line was over. There were about 6' of limbs between the highest and the lowest the throw line encountered, but I was able to choke the spar with an AB and an oval maillon (it just ended up being a huge loop encompassing trunk plus limbs). Does that happen all the time to folks, to be able to finagle the throw line far enough around the tree to work it into some version of a spar cinch? Alternatively, are there techniques to cause this to happen deliberately? I know there are some complete throw bag shamans out there...

Lastly, is there some hidden danger/risk in encompassing several limbs like that? Some stubs/limbs would see an upwards load on them, which I'd imagine is abnormal for something growing under the influence of gravity. But, that doesn't seem like it would matter.

 

[Z'sTrees]

It can shift as your weight moves closer to the TIP and slide up tighter, in turn you slide down a bit. Not really a problem but could be a bit unnerving.

 

[Chaplain242]

If some limbs encountered within loop are weak epicormics then can collapse loop if they let go but unlikely to drop you in a hurry - just can make it a mess when wanting to reset...

 

[LordFarkwad]

Almost got to the point of wanting to try resetting that TIP higher yesterday, but time and daylight ran out on me. That's a whole different ball of wax though, actually considering doing it.

Situation and question for you guys: I suppose one way I could have advanced it in this particular situation is to lanyard-in (xfer my weight to the lanyard) and simply remove the maillon and reset it along with the AB above the limb that was restricting the loop from collapsing further. Then I could continue doing this until I was up to the top limb the loop was hanging on (highest limb the throw line originally went over). From there, I guess I could get out the throw ball, tie a monkeys fist, etc., etc. Does this sound like how y'all would go about it?

I know this is way way way basic stuff...

 

[DSMc]

... Does this sound like how y'all would go about it?...

Not what I would do. Each tree will be different, so no one way, will work on each one. For that tree I would have been perfectly happy with just a base tie. It would have been so much less time consuming and every bit as safe.

Advancing a base anchor will always be slower, and consume far more energy, than just hitting a higher limb in the first place, so I always go for the highest safe limb. Having a whole trees worth of limbs under the suspension point is a real plus. Pines are great for this.

 

[ghostice]

Been working over the last few years on spindly spruces, sometimes takedowns and sometimes doing "top repairs" from storms/ snow loading. Often I cannot seem to be able to get reliable enough TIP on smallish branches way up that I'd trust it, so sometimes I go with half way up and then do the lanyard advance climb thing, often using a leather cambium saver on the lanyards (as much for pitch as for branch friction). SO I've wondered about two things - would it be possible to have a pole attachment that would accept the leather cambium saver somehow so you could crank it around the stem instead of spindly branches - way up say two or three pole sections? Or could there be some sort of pole attachment that would allow you to route the pole way up the tree and then rotate or flick a throw bag around the stem, detach it remotely and put the pole up again with say a magnet like Richard Mumford's magbag to retrieve the throwline and run a lanyard but now choked around the stem. I've fiddled with stuff like this but had mixed results as branches always seemed to get in the way time after time.
Now the flipside - on the downside for this stem choking setup is that I've had a couple of trees where the stem turned out to be cracked (unseen from the ground with binocs) and in fact a 5-6" stem that looked safe from lower down was only held on by a couple of two or three inch pieces of vertically cracked wood. Just think if you'da tied into the stem further up from these cracked sections - good TIP?? Not on your life. So maybe climbing little by ittle is actually better because you can examine the condition of the tree as you go up?
All that said, this season will still be playing with the stem choke setup and poles and magnets. It has me intrigued.

 

[Chaplain242]

One of the benefits of base tie is if top lets go you dont necessarily go down with the top. Apparently (I hope I have the story right) one of the climbers around here had a top pulled over by a vehicle (pulled before given signal) and top broke with the anchor still in the top. Using a hitch he descended(feathered the prusik whilst staying put) whilst the top fell to ground. Not a situation I would like to be in... but indicative of what you might face if a top fell off the tree whilst ascending/hanging...

 

[SomethingWitty]

One of the benefits of base tie is if top lets go you dont necessarily go down with the top. Apparently (I hope I have the story right) one of the climbers around here had a top pulled over by a vehicle (pulled before given signal) and top broke with the anchor still in the top. Using a hitch he descended(feathered the prusik whilst staying put) whilst the top fell to ground. Not a situation I would like to be in... but indicative of what you might face if a top fell off the tree whilst ascending/hanging...

That is some life-changing shit. Gave me chills thinking about realizing what is happening and then deciding to try to let it run. It would be that or cut it. Or unclip, if you have the time.

I hope that story is true, and that climber learned a lesson.

 

[ghostice]

Cited elsewhere/ previously on TreeBuzz, there are also "systems" out there where you run slings and biners up the trunk in a form of "running belay" a la sport climbing (used for pine cone collecting by USFS I think it was - Nick didn't like such a system) - these'd supposedly stop you from kissing the deck if the top failed too - but the fall factor would be huge so they're only useful if above the top anchor (TIP) and rope tight I suppose. And none of our arb gear is designed for a fall onto the gear really. So most of the advice out there (e.g. listen to Richard Hattier on the TreeStuff rescue video) involves starting on a lower TIP and moving up when you're sure of branch/ trunk integrity. Stay safe folks. Born under the birth sign of the Cringing Chicken . . . .

 

[Benjo75]

Yes. Basically pulling up a big loop by the backside. If it's a smooth barked tree you can let go of the knot and just pull up the oversized loop if there's nothing for it to hang on on the way up. When you get the loop where you want it just stop pulling on the throwline and pull the climbline tight. It will be sliding through the biner.

 

[Jehinten]

testing it statically with 2x my weight (been using a short section of rope and a CMI micro to set up a little 2:1 at the tail of my line, another technique that Mumford demonstrates in one of his videos),

I may be reading this wrong, but it sounds like you have a short dedicated rope and pulley for this. You can also set this up with your lanyard, just to reduce the amount of gear that you have to haul out to climb.

 

[LordFarkwad]

I may be reading this wrong, but it sounds like you have a short dedicated rope and pulley for this. You can also set this up with your lanyard, just to reduce the amount of gear that you have to haul out to climb.

Yeah, most recently I've been using my lanyard. Before that, I'd used a short section of Safety Blue, but I just made a long lanyard from the stuff and employed that as my 2:1.

Thanks for the tip, J! I love testing the TIP like this!

 

[Chaplain242]

That is some life-changing shit. Gave me chills thinking about realizing what is happening and then deciding to try to let it run. It would be that or cut it. Or unclip, if you have the time.

I hope that story is true, and that climber learned a lesson.

True story just hazy on details as I didn't hear it from the climber direct, apparently didn't have time to get unclipped - he is good climber too so I am sure it was a communication issue of some sort...

 

[Chaplain242]

Cited elsewhere/ previously on TreeBuzz, there are also "systems" out there where you run slings and biners up the trunk in a form of "running belay" a la sport climbing (used for pine cone collecting by USFS I think it was - Nick didn't like such a system) - these'd supposedly stop you from kissing the deck if the top failed too - but the fall factor would be huge so they're only useful if above the top anchor (TIP) and rope tight I suppose. And none of our arb gear is designed for a fall onto the gear really. So most of the advice out there (e.g. listen to Richard Hattier on the TreeStuff rescue video) involves starting on a lower TIP and moving up when you're sure of branch/ trunk integrity. Stay safe folks. Born under the birth sign of the Cringing Chicken . . . .

I use this for having to go out on long limbs of previously topped trees with little to no ground access. Limbs usually long and thin. Have had them break but not snap so far. Usually over a target so my priority is trying to ensure I advance the rig line keeping it in front before I advance out the limb myself.

 

[Mowerr]

I've fiddled with stuff like this but had mixed results as branches always seemed to get in the way time after time.

If u fall I will catch u. Ill be waiting....