Reduction Pruning on Large Trees

[Analog]

@Analog managing client expectations really is key for so much of the work that we do...

100% ! I'd like to think I'm good at it. I know it's won me some bids, when I write a detailed pruning prescription and plan and the other guy says "prune maple".

 

[Tom Dunlap]

What I AM claiming is that...

...you've got some new discoloration research that could change how we prune. Why aren't you sharing that with your peers? Rather than a zillion lines [that have been hashed out already] about conspiracies why not addsomething new.

IN any live limb over 4" diameter we should do our best to not make a target cut, even if that means leaving a short stub which can be pruned back some years later after the tree has formed an obvious collar of callous growth around the obvious dead stub.

You're sharing nothing new. I learned that from Dr S when I took his class many years ago. Even after that class I heard him say it many, many times. Its not your idea.

There's a natural evolution of understanding going on.

This is how science work

Shigo took us from the flush cut to the target cut. The next step is from the target cut tot he stub cut or reduction cut.

That's already going on.

The industry is slow to change

Slow in human lifetimes. Think in treetime.

Now...new ideas about discoloration you mentioned...???

 

[evo]

...you've got some new discoloration research that could change how we prune. Why aren't you sharing that with your peers? Rather than a zillion lines [that have been hashed out already] about conspiracies why not addsomething new.

You're sharing nothing new. I learned that from Dr S when I took his class many years ago. Even after that class I heard him say it many, many times. Its not your idea.


This is how science work


That's already going on.


Slow in human lifetimes. Think in treetime.

Now...new ideas about discoloration you mentioned...???

I think Daniel picked it up from one of the video in the link I shared. It shows where the tree stores defense chemicals in the upper part of a branch union.
I have no idea where I picked it up from, but it’s cool and good reassurance to what I’ve learned in the past.

 

[evo]

Oh it just dawned on me when I picked it up. The fact that late wood is often darker and denser fibers, due to increased defense chemicals, that and reaction woods. I just thought that was common knowledge. Wood impregnated with defenses looks different.
I’d love to hear more about it, if Daniel knows something too secret.
I’m sure most all of us have come across a hollowed out log, where the branch ‘spikes’ look like an Iron Maiden. Around here one can pick these out of old decayed deadfall where all else has turned to dust, or find them all over on a beach.

 

[Daniel]

Oh it just dawned on me when I picked it up. The fact that late wood is often darker and denser fibers, due to increased defense chemicals, that and reaction woods. I just thought that was common knowledge. Wood impregnated with defenses looks different.
I’d love to hear more about it, if Daniel knows something too secret.
I’m sure most all of us have come across a hollowed out log, where the branch ‘spikes’ look like an Iron Maiden. Around here one can pick these out of old decayed deadfall where all else has turned to dust, or find them all over on a beach.

great sharing..

Tom doesn't get it... what I have to say about discolration is that Shigo mistakenly used it as a measure to indicate proper pruning. Shigo believed that a perfect target cut would create less discoloration than either a flusher cut, or a stub cut. But neither he nor anyone else has followed through to the only measure that really counts in suburban arboriculture, which is tree failure.

That's very short sited as discoloration and decay account for only one factor in structural stability. The other major factor is how the new wood forms post pruning or post branch drying to stabilize the trunk. Here we run into one of many scenarios where science is not well suited to the task of providing guidance, because of the length of time involved in these processes and the difficulty in measuring outcomes, etc.

Fortunately we have common sense and logic which can provide some excellent insight where science is lacking... Just look some old gnarly trees in the woods and you'll find without question that trees have the ability to shed large limbs and maintain their structural stability without the need of target cut. And look at the structure of the new wood that grows around a large dry stub.... The way the new wood grows out and around the stub creates a very strong structure even as there is decay going on internally, even added decay from the "Sugar stick".

Also leaving a live stub allows the tree a choice of growing new sprouts from latent buds or dyingoff the limb. In the latter case, the tree has time to prepare and set up chemical defenses before while there is a physical barrier between the wood decaying organisms and the main stem.

And last but certainly not least, while those target cuts shown in the text books look so pretty, in the real world them targets ain't so easy to determine... So why take a chance on violating the BPZ when you can leave a stub, wait a few years, or more, until the tree has developed an obvious collar of new wood around an obvious dry stub and then go back and make the cut when it's so clear that even a shirtless toothless uneducated tree climber can't fuck it up.

 

[evo]

Welp there we have it, the earth shattering 'Dis'colored wood theory... The failure in this communication is the term 'Discolored'. The tree doing what it does naturally to impregnate wood in various ways which can alter the color isn't the same as the wood being discolored from the advance of decay in it's fibers.
Off to the dentist to get my teeth fixed now
"So why take a chance on violating the BPZ when you can leave a stub, wait a few years, or more, until the tree has developed an obvious collar of new wood around an obvious dry stub and then go back and make the cut when it's so clear that even a shirtless toothless uneducated tree climber can't fuck it up."
I think you missed the part in the video where the presenter was advocating NOT calling stems that lack a collar branches. Pretty interesting POV.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

you can leave a stub, wait a few years, or more, until the tree has developed an obvious collar of new wood around an obvious dry stub and then go back and make the cut when it's so clear that even a shirtless toothless uneducated tree climber can't fuck it up.

That was discussed in that class I took back in the ancient days. Its been hashed over many times in the decades since. No one I'v ever heard from has been a good enough sales rep to make it work.

No one I've ever heard thought that they could sell a client on paying them again in a few years to come back and finish the job they pay for today.

@Daniel Since this is a procedure please share with us your sales pitch to your clients for the double bill. You must have lots of re-finishing jobs. Or do these recuts go to your

shirtless toothless uneducated tree climber crew.

 

[evo]

Seeking employees for the naked tree crew.

Dental problems a bonus but not required.

Pay DOE, self righteous egos need not apply

 

[Bendroctanus]

Seeking employees for the naked tree crew.

Dental problems a bonus but not required.

Pay DOE, self righteous egos need not apply

Where do I sign.

 

[Matias]

I'll join; even let you knock out my teeth so I fit in.

 

[evo]

Shit if I knew it was that easy come on over and I’ll put y’all to work. Not joking

 

[Matias]

Shit if I knew it was that easy come on over and I’ll put y’all to work. Not joking

Be careful what you wish for buddy; some of us aren't too far away

 

[Tom Dunlap]

The fully-clothed, dentally maintained and learning arborists that were in the Dr. Shigo class with me back then had some good chats when Dr. S suggested make stub-cuts then retrims. It was agreed that this wasn't practical or even worth considering. Too many shortcomings. Clothes and teeth aside.

The conclusion we all came to, with some nudging, was to do the best we could and observe the trees response. Make changes like anyone who is learning. brushing their teeth and wearing proper clothing.

Ooops---I apologize for making a mistake on my timeline. I see that I was in Dr Shigo's class in April 1995 rather than in the '80s like I thought.

 

[Bendroctanus]

Shit if I knew it was that easy come on over and I’ll put y’all to work. Not joking

Some of us miss the PNW that much.

 

[Neill]

 

[Neill]

 

[Neill]

Just had these in the quiver and figured what the hay. if there was a time for them now is as good as any.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

I know it's won me some bids, when I write a detailed pruning prescription and plan and the other guy says "prune maple".

I remember a bid that I won because I wrote up 'prune maple/oak/etc.' and the other guy said 'prune trees'. LOL

 

[Tom Dunlap]

@Neill

Where is your shirtless toothless uneducated tree climber? Looks like they missed a couple.

 

[Bart_]

Best I can figure wrt end weight reduction is the stiffness/bending differences could only come about in a wind gust situation where the speed of the gust change was as fast as or faster than the bounce motion induced in the tree structures/branches. In steady wind, smaller branches are smaller sails seems straightforward enough.

Simple physics vs induced growth response in the tree seems a good thought to consider. Anyone remember someone hanging little weights on branches re this topic?