New Technique for weight reduction of Hazard Tree

Re: New Technique for Hazard Tree Removal.

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Stem trace or Girdle limbs, leaders or root flare to a few mm beyond the cambium. Need to remove atleast a few rings to be effective
Creates a gap thus reducing the water weight in the tree prior to their removal.
Similar effect to removal during a drought vs wet season.
What do you guys think about this?
How much water weight can be avoided?
Green log weight and dead wood weight differs enough to warrant the effort?
Less load on rigging gear, crane, ropes etc.
Any unanticipated draw back to this practice?

I am 5'9" nearing 200lbs all suited up so this may help me and few of you big boned Vikings out there!
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The tree could keep growing for months, if not a couple of years.

So you could end up with a heavier tree in the months ahead. Lighter probably only after it dies.

The water still can move up the xylem on the inside, even if the cambium and phloem are removed.

The tree top leaves will still manufacture food from the water and nutrients going up the trunk, and will feed the tree from the top down to the girdled area.

The "drawback" could be years of continued growth, leaving an even larger taller tree to remove.
 
Re: New Technique for Hazard Tree Removal.

New Technique For Hazard Tree Removal

Hazard tree; low, medium, high and Imminent. Right?

Removal of a tree low to medium rating I prefer pruning. Agreed?

Removal of a tree that is high, most likely is the right thing to do. Pretty much?

Imminent, shut the street down, put up the barriers so alteast no one dies. Right!

Lets reduce some of the variables now. OK.
A Hazard tree that needs to be removed and no changing minds, decision is made and consider only the safety of the climber.
We all agree the girdling technique will reduce the weight. Science right. How much? Possibley 10-20-30%. It will vary.

Do you want on option to reduce the weight of the tree? Sounds good to me, how about you.
Ok lets reduce the weight at the levers end? The branch tips! Why? For the same reason you are more comfortable being vertical on a vertical spar opposed to being on a horizontal limb. Your weight adds to the weight of the limb you are on and potentially increasing to the chance of that limb failing.

Less weight on the levers end, where a climber is working is important to avoid a failure.
Personnally for me out on the tips with rope and harness I would like the wt reduced.

The flexibility argument, dead wood versus green wood.
From my experience dead wood is stronger on a perpendicular load through to a more vertical load.
Years of tending to storm damage we find green wood in the dormant season fail more then dead wood.
 
Re: New Technique for Hazard Tree Removal.

The girdle technique will remove the more effecient water conducting rings/xylem. It is a substantial Reduction in water equaling reduced growth equals reduce weight.
If the tree is in full leaf and actively growing it only takes about a month for droughted tree to wilt and defoliate.

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The tree could keep growing for months, if not a couple of years.

So you could end up with a heavier tree in the months ahead. Lighter probably only after it dies.

The water still can move up the xylem on the inside, even if the cambium and phloem are removed.

The tree top leaves will still manufacture food from the water and nutrients going up the trunk, and will feed the tree from the top down to the girdled area.

The "drawback" could be years of continued growth, leaving an even larger taller tree to remove.



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Re: New Technique for Hazard Tree Removal.

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Wow! No poison ivy, that's great!

I learned something.

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Well, we have poison ivy, but is more like a broad leaf grass, it doesn't really grow over 6" but it does cover the ground.
 
Re: New Technique for Hazard Tree Removal.

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Lets reduce some of the variables now. OK.
A Hazard tree that needs to be removed and no changing minds, decision is made and consider only the safety of the climber.
We all agree the girdling technique will reduce the weight. Science right. How much? Possibley 10-20-30%. It will vary.

Do you want on option to reduce the weight of the tree? Sounds good to me, how about you.

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No. Consider the safety of the climber, but also the public and also protect the company from lawsuit.

No. Girdling technique may not reduce weight in some cases. Also I've been very suprised these last two years of witnessing how a fairly deep girdling doesn't kill some trees fast, sometimes takes 4 months to a year or more. If you have to cut REALLY deep; then you are also likely compromising the tree even more.

Do I want an option to reduce the weight of the tree? Not much of a big deal in my opinion. It's standing right now, it's a hazard, remove it right now. Done.

by the way, I don't like your tone.
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Re: New Technique for Hazard Tree Removal.

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Strong opinion.

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RopeShield responses in Italics. Keep in mind i have no crane and usually no access or money for mewps .

1. If tree fails during that time, even though it wasn't from your girdle cut at it's base or limb, you would VERY likely be blamed. "Well, he's the one that came and cut the tree..." Even the customer that wasn't sue happy would surely blame you for the failure.

Failure. Reducing weight of something with the potential for failure is what we practice with pruning, removal and cabling. this is different for sure. i envision this as standard practice some day. .

2. Green weight verses dead tree weight would not save much time in a removal in my opinion.
Green or dead weight coupled with being hazardous is what adds time to a removal for a climber.

3. two trips to a location however, takes up too much time.
TIME to make a job safer and keep a climber safer is well worth it.Charge them $
4. possibly if you take too long, your tree could become hazardous as it dries up.
DRY trees dangerous why do we dry lumber for construction. Am I getting this right?
5. customers or others that hear that you do such a thing, are going to think you are a numb skull, and it might ruin your reputation; if you have a good one.
MY reputation and what other think is last on the list of what is important.Safe hazard tree removal is what I am after

Yes, I come across too strong often on this forum and Classic is quite right.
Cool of you, it is forgotten.



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Re: New Technique for Hazard Tree Removal.

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The girdle technique will remove the more effecient water conducting rings/xylem. It is a substantial Reduction in water equaling reduced growth equals reduce weight.
If the tree is in full leaf and actively growing it only takes about a month for droughted tree to wilt and defoliate.

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The tree could keep growing for months, if not a couple of years.

So you could end up with a heavier tree in the months ahead. Lighter probably only after it dies.

The water still can move up the xylem on the inside, even if the cambium and phloem are removed.

The tree top leaves will still manufacture food from the water and nutrients going up the trunk, and will feed the tree from the top down to the girdled area.

The "drawback" could be years of continued growth, leaving an even larger taller tree to remove.



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The reply "more efficient" implies or connotes some remaining efficiency. And if there is any efficiency remaining at all, the tree is going to stay relatively moist and should still grow for a while.

Its pretty remarkable how long wood takes to dry in trunks that are completely severed and dropped to the ground.

I generally prefer moist wood for removals, instead of dry, because water lubricates for greater ease of cutting, whereas dry also absorbs more oil from the chain and bar.
 
Re: New Technique for Hazard Tree Removal.

agree with X, x3. he was gentle imo.

if water moves up the xylem, how does cutting the sapwood make much difference in weight?

also...wtf is a Hazard Tree, and why is removal the default option for it?
 
Re: New Technique for Hazard Tree Removal.

We all can see this is new. But really we are applying an existing principle used in the culturing of woody plants. Mans intervening has created desirable effects. slower or faster growth, florification, increase yields, better aesthetics etc. Here is an adaptation of an existing practice to create a safer tree for us to work in.
I climb daily and risk life and limb to save or dismantle trees. That is where I come from.
I suggest removing xylem up to and including what ever is necessary and doesn't add to the hazard potential.
Upto 20 rings can uptake H2O with rings closest to the cambuim the most effecient and rings closer to the heart less effecient.
The removal or crown reduction or what ever practice you wish to perform is not the practice I am interested in.
The practice to reduce weight of a hazard tree for a climber to work in safely or rig or work on is what we need to focus on.
We can all work together to find more questions and answers.
 
Re: New Technique for Hazard Tree Removal.

here, in your quest to dry up a tree so you can make a safer tree (in your opinion)for you to climb:

girdle the trunk and apply Garlon IV.

or, don't girdle at all and apply Garlon IV to the lower trunk.

Or, see if you can purchase a used military flame thrower on the black market and roast the tree on the spot, then climb it that same day, all nice and safe like.

ukliam2.gif
 
Re: New Technique for Hazard Tree Removal.

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also...wtf is a Hazard Tree, and why is removal the default option for it?

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a Hazard Tree is a hazard tree if I say it is a hazard tree and there are not many trees that are hazard trees.

However, all the trees in Hazard County from the show The Dukes of Hazard, probably could be called Hazard Trees.
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Re: New Technique for Hazard Tree Removal.

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see if you can purchase a used military flame thrower on the black market and roast the tree on the spot, then climb it that same day, all nice and safe like.

ukliam2.gif


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Good idea. Everyone knows charred bark is less slippery.

This response is right in line with the New Technique.
 
Re: New Technique for Hazard Tree Removal.

So by partially cutting through the stem and removing holding wood you are making the tree safer to climb?

Call me crazy but im pretty sure that is counter intuitive to the goal.
 
Re: New Technique for Hazard Tree Removal.

Your crazy!
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The goal is reducing the weight in a safe way. I am not suggesting removing more wood than is nececcary to create the desired effect.
If you girdle at the root flare, on the bole or major limb, all you are doing is scoring through 1/2" or greater to a safe and comfortable distance. You need only to remove Bark, cambuim and a few of the most effecient water transporting rings closest to the cambuim.
Never mind cutting further into the heart that wood is much less effecient at moving water.
I am not suggesting making the tree unsafe in any way.
Does that help in understanding the practice and the desired effect.
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So by partially cutting through the stem and removing holding wood you are making the tree safer to climb?

Call me crazy but im pretty sure that is counter intuitive to the goal.

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Re: New Technique for Hazard Tree Removal.

yes, you Canadians are crazy, I've seen you guys on Southpark. When you talk you're heads bounce around all crazy like. No wonder what you speak doesn't make sense.
 
Re: New Technique for Hazard Tree Removal.

I had a customer in the last year decide to "help" me out by doing this very thing. I was more than a little pissed off. He thought that by cutting the cambium and perhaps a little more that he could prevent the tree from pulling sap up in the spring. It was a 60' douglas fir tree about 10' away from his house. No drop zone, everything had to be rigged down off of the tree. I was just happy that there was another tree close that I could put a climbing line in.

My old boss has had customers decide to girdle trees themselves. He usually lets them know how bad of an idea it was and gives them a sky high bid if he bids at all.
 
Re: New Technique for Hazard Tree Removal.

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The goal is reducing the weight in a safe way.

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RS, it is great to "think" and come up with new ideas but it is also important to recognize when those new ideas don't work. Then let it go.

What you are trying to achieve, a significant weight reduction, will only be accomplished if enough moisture is removed from the cells to mimic a dead tree. Cells with this small amount of moisture are indeed lighter, and I know of no climber that prefers removing a dead tree over a live tree. There will always be exceptions, but as a general rule I find this to be true.

Deadwood just does not have the smooth, flexible response and shock absorbency of live tissues, so it becomes challenging and unreliable to work with and rarely is it safer.

Dave
 
Re: New Technique for Hazard Tree Removal.

It would take a little math but working out the numbers for determining the green weight and then the weight when it has reached equilibrium you'd find that it isn't too large.

I've milled and dried lumber. It takes a LONG time to dry lumber. Wood in the log takes forever. The intracellular water will dry out quite easily. The intercellular water doesn't move very fast.

Good thought, but not really practical. Take smaller pieces and use larger rigging gear.
 
Re: New Technique for Hazard Tree Removal.

Yeah thats interesting, I had a pile of slabs left from the sawmill sitting for well over a year, I thought that once I cut them up they would be ready to burn. nope.
 
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