Treetopflyer
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Coastal N.J
Can you say buzz kill
Lost a large removal job to a landscaper... Decided to say something.
- Thread starter tomthetreeman
- Start date
TreeLogic
Branched out member
- Location
- Coastal SC
He doesn't need to prove anything to you Guy. My my, we are full of ourselves sometimes.
guymayor
Branched out member
- Location
- East US, Earth
Tom, sorry you lost the job. Hard to say more without knowing more about it. I tried to get to the cause of the situation; sorry if that was not where you wanted to go.
I've lost several jobs that were verbally agreed to due to a husband/wife maneuvering to get the best deal for their household. Often there's a blatant lie attached, which makes it much worse to swallow.
But what else can you do but move on? The 2nd paragraph might fit some owner/contractor relationships, but not many ime.
Marlin, per the derail, "Often it is a cost benefit analysis of the cost of long term preservation versus the cost of removal and replanting.", you describe a decision making process that does not include the present or potential value/contributions/benefits associated with the tree.
On most sites the owner recognizes value in the tree, as I'm sure Tom did incorporate that into his advice. The 'cost of long term preservation' is usually overblown due to inexperience and bad guessing. "Replace" is a myth; when a baby is planted it does not replace the adult, for decades if ever. But start a new thread if you don't agree.
I've lost several jobs that were verbally agreed to due to a husband/wife maneuvering to get the best deal for their household. Often there's a blatant lie attached, which makes it much worse to swallow.
But what else can you do but move on? The 2nd paragraph might fit some owner/contractor relationships, but not many ime.
Marlin, per the derail, "Often it is a cost benefit analysis of the cost of long term preservation versus the cost of removal and replanting.", you describe a decision making process that does not include the present or potential value/contributions/benefits associated with the tree.
On most sites the owner recognizes value in the tree, as I'm sure Tom did incorporate that into his advice. The 'cost of long term preservation' is usually overblown due to inexperience and bad guessing. "Replace" is a myth; when a baby is planted it does not replace the adult, for decades if ever. But start a new thread if you don't agree.
As far as your estimates like "80-90% dead" (which you fail to support) or predictions that "in 1 or 2 years it will be dead" ot (which not even God can make), pardon me, I highly respect your abilities, but I am calling BS until you put substance where those claims are. You've done nothing to substantiate these claims, "
I call a tree dead in 1 to 2 years quite often and I'm always right. So why can't I say it?
If I see an oak that is 50% dead and hypoxylen on many of the big limbs; I'll say it will be 100% dead in one more year; miracle if it makes it to two years.
I call a tree dead in 1 to 2 years quite often and I'm always right. So why can't I say it?
If I see an oak that is 50% dead and hypoxylen on many of the big limbs; I'll say it will be 100% dead in one more year; miracle if it makes it to two years.
treehumper
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ridgefield, NJ
This is a thread about a business practice. At this point it's academic. Challenging the initial process or conjecture on the evaluation's validity isn't of any value. Was it a good approach or not, could it be worded better, these are the questions to opine on. JMHO
Do you own this treebuzz website treehumper?
The initial topic has been gone over enough and completed I think. it was interesting.
Threads can change and morph into other subjects.
I'll give my opinion on whatever I want.
The initial topic has been gone over enough and completed I think. it was interesting.
Threads can change and morph into other subjects.
I'll give my opinion on whatever I want.
treehumper
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ridgefield, NJ
Sorry Dave, not directed at you just at the direction the thread was going. But let this morph and see if it has legs!
djm
Participating member
- Location
- Seacoast NH
Well said!
djm
Participating member
- Location
- Seacoast NH
sherwood7
Participating member
- Location
- Denver, co
Interesting thread. I believe it has accomplished what Tom wanted. An evaluation of the situation and opinions from many different view points. As for the removal of the trees, everyone should know how hard it is to make a call on something they haven't seen with their own eyes. My personal view is I don't ever make a call on a certain situation or tree unless Iv seen it with my own eyes. Only tom was there to actually see the trees and listen to the clients wishes. Like it or not we r in the tree removal business sometimes. I'm a contractor, so many times I find myself in situation were I don't agree with the scope of the work. You can either accept the job or turn it down. If u don't do it someone else will, maybe not as safely and professionally as you would have. I enjoy tree work, but I mostly do it because I get paid( and have no other job skills
)
)
NorCalBrock
Branched out member
- Location
- Chico
*Bump
We all get burned!
I wanted to post some thoughts from a California "landscaper" and "tree service" perspective who is working on getting an arborist certification.
It comes down to: Customer education, customer relationships, and regulation and enforcement.
1. Ouch! In California, a landscape contractor doesn't just "cut 90%" grass. To become a contractor, and if one want's to be at the top of their game, there is a host of skills, knowledge, law, and regulations, which include safety, that we must adhere to and abide by. As with any trade or profession, there is a spectrum of services out there. We get outbid all the time because other "tree service" and "landscape" businesses don't have a contractor's license, business license, insurance, taxes, etc. Many in the area have been caught doing illegal work, sued for injury and property damage, had deaths on jobs, and had their assets seized by the IRS. Yet, they are still out there doing "cash only" business. I didn't even mention the meth crews on bikes with the electric corded craftsman - "give me $150 to do all your trees" and never come back after lunch.
2. In California, there is nothing in law that states an arborist must do the tree care or service. However, anything over $600, does require a C27 or C29 contractor's license. We have businesses in the area who are legitimate arborists, or just "members" of TCIA and ISA, or have only a certified person on staff who doesn't even see the tree and has an uncertified crew do the work and interact with the customer. I've seen a wide spectrum of quality work from "arborists" - hack jobs to top notch. We have arborists making claims that "only an arborist can do tree work" just to get the job - this is not true, but I will agree they are more qualified. Also, we have arborists doing illegal contracting work without a contractor's license or current or valid cert. Once again, it is part of the business.
3. We have provided tree services for over 45 years without arborist certification. We haven't had one major injury, accident, insurance claim, or claim against our license. Do we have skills and knowledge - absolutely, our record and returned clients prove it. How? Dad learned the trade from an arborist while working for one for a number of years before starting the business. Continual training and research from certified arborists - safety, safety, safety. I spend a lot of time learning best practices until the certification is obtained. We subcontract anything we don't feel comfortable with and don't do certain things - cabling, tree health, very large and hazardous removal, utility line clearance. The industry is changing and methods have changed, so I see the benefit in added knowledge, safety, and opportunity that a arborist and climbing cert will provide.
Things need to change or nothing changes - Opportunity in every obstacle:
A. Biggest hurdle - average joe (customer) doesn't know the difference between a lawn care service, landscape contractor, a valid business license / contractor license, insurance or arborist (what the hell is that word?), stump grinder, and kid who rakes up leaves. The opportunity is to build trust, educate, and sustain a client relationship.
B. Partnership - why work divided? We partner with the top arborist in the area. We recommend them and use them, and they recommend and use us. The big stuff goes to them as a sub or recommendation, they use us on storm clean-up, throw us small bones, and anything they can't get to.
C. Enforcement & Regulation - not sure what needs to change here, but I'd like to make it impossible for the seedy crews on bikes and guys with total disregard to law and regulations to never get work. But then again, I can't count the number of jobs we get because people were burned.
Just a lazy Saturday post.
We all get burned!
I wanted to post some thoughts from a California "landscaper" and "tree service" perspective who is working on getting an arborist certification.
It comes down to: Customer education, customer relationships, and regulation and enforcement.
1. Ouch! In California, a landscape contractor doesn't just "cut 90%" grass. To become a contractor, and if one want's to be at the top of their game, there is a host of skills, knowledge, law, and regulations, which include safety, that we must adhere to and abide by. As with any trade or profession, there is a spectrum of services out there. We get outbid all the time because other "tree service" and "landscape" businesses don't have a contractor's license, business license, insurance, taxes, etc. Many in the area have been caught doing illegal work, sued for injury and property damage, had deaths on jobs, and had their assets seized by the IRS. Yet, they are still out there doing "cash only" business. I didn't even mention the meth crews on bikes with the electric corded craftsman - "give me $150 to do all your trees" and never come back after lunch.
2. In California, there is nothing in law that states an arborist must do the tree care or service. However, anything over $600, does require a C27 or C29 contractor's license. We have businesses in the area who are legitimate arborists, or just "members" of TCIA and ISA, or have only a certified person on staff who doesn't even see the tree and has an uncertified crew do the work and interact with the customer. I've seen a wide spectrum of quality work from "arborists" - hack jobs to top notch. We have arborists making claims that "only an arborist can do tree work" just to get the job - this is not true, but I will agree they are more qualified. Also, we have arborists doing illegal contracting work without a contractor's license or current or valid cert. Once again, it is part of the business.
3. We have provided tree services for over 45 years without arborist certification. We haven't had one major injury, accident, insurance claim, or claim against our license. Do we have skills and knowledge - absolutely, our record and returned clients prove it. How? Dad learned the trade from an arborist while working for one for a number of years before starting the business. Continual training and research from certified arborists - safety, safety, safety. I spend a lot of time learning best practices until the certification is obtained. We subcontract anything we don't feel comfortable with and don't do certain things - cabling, tree health, very large and hazardous removal, utility line clearance. The industry is changing and methods have changed, so I see the benefit in added knowledge, safety, and opportunity that a arborist and climbing cert will provide.
Things need to change or nothing changes - Opportunity in every obstacle:
A. Biggest hurdle - average joe (customer) doesn't know the difference between a lawn care service, landscape contractor, a valid business license / contractor license, insurance or arborist (what the hell is that word?), stump grinder, and kid who rakes up leaves. The opportunity is to build trust, educate, and sustain a client relationship.
B. Partnership - why work divided? We partner with the top arborist in the area. We recommend them and use them, and they recommend and use us. The big stuff goes to them as a sub or recommendation, they use us on storm clean-up, throw us small bones, and anything they can't get to.
C. Enforcement & Regulation - not sure what needs to change here, but I'd like to make it impossible for the seedy crews on bikes and guys with total disregard to law and regulations to never get work. But then again, I can't count the number of jobs we get because people were burned.
Just a lazy Saturday post.
treehumper
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ridgefield, NJ
It's an unfortunate reality that enforcement is a necessary component but one that is lacking.
NorCalBrock
Branched out member
- Location
- Chico
We had a HO call us last year - we give free consults and estimates (one time).
After 2 hours! the live in "care taker" said - "well I think I can handle it".
4 months later, we get a call back. Said care taker fell off a ladder and broke his wrist.
We said your free consultation was up, we charged a consult fee, upped the bid, and took care of the job in two days.
The biggest issue was a huge eucalyptus over a deck, shop, house and with no bucket or easy cleanup access.
The care taker watched us the whole time because after he healed, he was going to get some climbing gear and do it from now on.
He really thinks he is going to make a few extra thousand a year by watching us.
Sad thing is, the homeowner has dementia and the power of attorneys (children) live 800 miles away.
I emailed them to caution then that any work done above ground level and bigger than a 3" by an unexperienced person already has and can result in more property damage, injury, death, and, best case, unhealthy and poorly managed plants and trees.
They paid promptly - but Never heard a word back.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
After 2 hours! the live in "care taker" said - "well I think I can handle it".
4 months later, we get a call back. Said care taker fell off a ladder and broke his wrist.
We said your free consultation was up, we charged a consult fee, upped the bid, and took care of the job in two days.
The biggest issue was a huge eucalyptus over a deck, shop, house and with no bucket or easy cleanup access.
The care taker watched us the whole time because after he healed, he was going to get some climbing gear and do it from now on.
He really thinks he is going to make a few extra thousand a year by watching us.
Sad thing is, the homeowner has dementia and the power of attorneys (children) live 800 miles away.
I emailed them to caution then that any work done above ground level and bigger than a 3" by an unexperienced person already has and can result in more property damage, injury, death, and, best case, unhealthy and poorly managed plants and trees.
They paid promptly - but Never heard a word back.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
NorCalBrock
Branched out member
- Location
- Chico
If there wasn't liability and safety issues and I was more sinister, I'd love to use them as a ground guy for 2 hours just to give them a good butt kicking. Then they'd pay me more
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
