Lost a large removal job to a landscaper... Decided to say something.

guymayor said:
Tom if your finger stopped hovering and you sent that, seems like a hasty move. Your links were weak and off-point and the 2nd half personal and TMI for most owners.
Also some of this is not passing the smell test. If you were not being paid for a consult why did you give one?

If the trees were "80%-90% dead", why did you spend the time convincing them of such an obvious 'hazard'? Could those % be exaggerated, and the 'hazard' too?
Is your need to keep a volume of work coming in skewing your selling away from arboriculture? This bias happened with me and also can happen to the best of companies.

Basing a business, or an industry, on removals seems like a race to the bottom. The industry is skewed up if 'technical tree care' is defined as removing them by self-defined standards.
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Respectfully disagree. I agree many trees are taken down unnecessarily but i think maybe your ways are skewed in the opposite direction Guy. It's a common rant with you.

A rotting tree is no good in someone's yard.
 
Guy, I do not charge for consultations, although someday I hope to. Like I said in a previous post, we are booked into December currently, so there is no need for me to sell this job. I will say that we have never had this 'problem' before. :) Maybe it's time I started charging.

It was difficult to see just how bad the trees were from their property. You had to go onto a small laneway over a stone wall and look from behind to see the true condition of the trees. There is a lot of other vegetation in front of them which made it difficult to see the overall canopy condition. My business is not at all based upon removals, in fact it's quite the opposite. 90% of our work is tree preservation. These are large dying oaks over a yard and a laneway. Are you suggesting I leave them for habitat?

I agree, the second part was a bit personal, but I have spent a lot of time and effort toward that goal, and I just felt like saying it. Probably a mistake. How is the tree care tips link weak?

Tom

Edit: you gotta love Siri.
 
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Those of us who see this vocation as a calling we want to devote our lives to can't halp but take this sort of thing personally. We try to better the industry and have lowballers with limited skills and knowledge come and snatch jobs away from us. I know that for me, it's rarely about the lost money. What irks me is that I spend a lot of time developing my knowledge and skills in both the preservation and removal arena and someone else buys their landscaping company a top handle saw and considers themselves qualified. The longer I do tree work, the less I realize I know. There is always the potential to come across as a sore loser, but the fact is, that if we don't educate clients on why they should hire a legitimate tree care company, nobody will. We cannot force them to change their minds and I don't think Tom expects to. We have a duty to ourselves and our industry to put the information out there.
Guy, I would agree that too much of our industry is focused on removal. I think it comes from separating the PHC side of the business from the technical aspects. Go to a ISA conference and a climbing comp, there is often very little overlap. Until we completely marry the two sides of the industry and start really educating the low man on the totem pole, this will be how the industry is. That being said, I show up on consults all the time where people ask me if they can "save" the tree that is 90% dead and rotting. I tell them it can't be saved and I sell a removal. I wish I could leave more snags as habitat, but again, it's a tough sell. I also talk people into keeping and preserving trees whenever possible. In the end I do more pruning and preservation work than I do removals but I still do a fair number of removals.
 
Tom,
I think you'd be best to let this one go. All the points you made in the letter may be valid, but the appropriate time to make them would have been during your sales pitch. If the landscaper can't handle it, you may end up with an apologetic call from the customer.
 
If we worked in an industry where there was uniform regulation, like say, electricians or plumbers, no one would even question the validity of pointing out that someone is under qualified and under insured. It would be a given that you would simply report the company and that would be that. Our industry is young enough that we still really need to educate consumers on why they should choose a reputable company. That is every reputable Arborists job. That can be done through the ISA and TCIA, but it's much more effective on an individual level. I applaud Tom for making the effort. Our industry would be better off if more of us weren't afraid to send a similar letter. I really don't feel that this is about winning back the 1 job, it's about improving the perception of our industry from unskilled labor to the highly complicated, skilled profession that it is.
The irony here is that I doubt the client even called the landscaper until Tom sold the removal. I would be willing to bet that they called Tom for all the reasons they should, that he's got a good reputation, that he's ISA certified and knowledgeable. Once it moved to the removal realm, they stopped caring about those things. As was said before, it's much harder to sell the differences in a removal.
 
It was a tough sell once the landscaper got involved. He has a long term relationship with the client and could very well have seen Tom as a potential threat. They don't know who he might be connected to for the landscaping. One step you may want to take is to approach the landscaper about working as his subcontractor. He's just another prospective client.
 
MARK_CHISHOLM said:
I would agree with Chewy and say that you could lose the second part of your email and just send the first part. There's no real benefit to alert them of your contacting the landscaper. Giving them good info to make the best decision while protecting themselves is appropriate. You just don't want to come off like a sore loser. In that, I would also edit the "underbid" part as well for the same reason and maybe simply say something like "they can often come I'm at a lower price due to the lower overhead; overhead that is necessary to protect you and your property from liability. .." or something.

All in all I like the communication. I would just leave emotion (or the perception of it) out of it.
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As for the part about telling homeowners about there cost of overhead being lower than your, they likely don't give even half a care.

If you take a small professional, polite 2 man company with a F-350 and a 6" chipper its overhead would be tiny compared to say Chisholm's entire company with multiple crews, cranes, buckets,etc the over head should be lower costs should be different depending how the jobs are decided to be done.

But even landscape companies can carry enough insurance and work professionally as they can and have the skills to do simple trees sometimes.

I'm not saying that they should do it all some trees are over there capacity and skill but hey, sorry for the aside my main point is the overhead argument is a choice you made so you have to stand by it as they stand by there's. If they've been around that area for that long with good clients they must do something right. Just my opinion.
 
I respect and agree with Tom for taking a shot at trying to educate the consumer. That's our best shot of moving forward as an industry. I had a similar occurrence last year with a friend who's wife hired another tree company to do their work. All I could do was tell them what to do to protect themselves and offer to help out if they needed anything after the work was done. You can't always sway someone bit you sure can make them think about things. You did that for sure Tom.
 
KevinS said:
But even landscape companies can carry enough insurance and work professionally as they can and have the skills to do simple trees sometimes... If they've been around that area for that long with good clients they must do something right. Just my opinion.
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In our area, it is difficult to do 'some' tree work. You have to have at least 3 years with a WC company to even attempt it, and with GL it may be impossible without some white lies/liability involved.

As to the second part, the area in question is very unique. I will let Oceans describe it if he is inclined. In short, it's big money/old money/vacation/summer occupant/rich rednecks. Tough nut to crack. In short, the landscaper is not necessarily doing something right, he is more likely bending to the needs of this bizarre market.

-Tom
 
tomthetreeman said:
In our area, it is difficult to do 'some' tree work. You have to have at least 3 years with a WC company to even attempt it, and with GL it may be impossible without some white lies/liability involved.

As to the second part, the area in question is very unique. I will let Oceans describe it if he is inclined. In short, it's big money/old money/vacation/summer occupant/rich rednecks. Tough nut to crack. In short, the landscaper is not necessarily doing something right, he is more likely bending to the needs of this bizarre market.

-Tom
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Fair enough
 
But don't those old monied folks usually bow to your obvious superiority. They themselves rule their own lives in this fashion. They want the best and that is what you provide.
To suggest otherwise to this class is to imply that they are acting beneath themselves. And they are. They are acting middle class when they do that. Wouldn't want to do that now, would we?
 
Just skimmed through this in a rush. Will read it more thouroughly later. Great talking point Tom. I'm often hired by landscapers on tree jobs.... Much to the disdain of tree companies. I personally think youre going to come out of this looking bad if you continue, Tom. Not the thread, the situation. How people spend their own money, and where they put their trust is their business. Taking a stab in the dark is one thing, but it seems you came into this situation without an invite, and now you're applying pressure. While you might be receiving polite replies at this stage, the tactics you're using are rarely appreciated. I would just leave the door open and say ' if you need me I'm right here'
 
I agree that there's basically no way for me to come out of it looking good, but in reference to your 'without an invite quote,' I had been verbally given the job prior to receiving the email about the landscaper.

Tom
 
I lose an average of two of these type jobs a month. I agree with your methods Tom. Scrapers around here promise the moon and can barely provide any light. I have sent a few similar emails and found that the average is on the losing end, although several folks have called me at a later date. Often times I put too personal of an attachment to my services and my client, something I am working on. In the end, I think you have helped this customer see the differences in a professional tree care company and a lawn jockey(although this is assumed). Please let us know , as I know you will, how this all works out.
 
tomthetreeman said:
I agree that there's basically no way for me to come out of it looking good, but in reference to your 'without an invite quote,' I had been verbally given the job prior to receiving the email about the landscaper.

Tom
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Sorry Tom, must a missed that part. I would still back off if I were you. Make the peace to both parties if it's not too late. Landscapers make much better alies than enemies.
 
"I had been verbally given the job prior to receiving the email about the landscaper."

Do you mean you'd given her a quote and she accepted it verbally, then changed her mind because of the landscaper.

Or do you mean they'd offered to give you the job, but you'd still be required to offer them a written quote, with the implicit understanding that getting the job would still be subject to a decision.

If the first, then the issue is about their reneging on their end of a contract. There has been a discussion thread about this before. Seems like most people would like to put something in their contract about non-negotiated cancellation of work incurring a mobilization fee.
If you mean the other, then isn't it an issue of legal status of the contracting parties. The homeowner is still doing business with a contractor who lacks the insurance qualifications to do the work--even if he is hiring a subcontractor who is. It could be pointed out to the customer that the math doesn't work out, there is something fishy with their scheme. Somebody is not licensed down that road and that's where the "savings" are being generated.
 
Tom - I feel for your position, and can relate to the foundation for sending such a message to the parties noted.

My experience - recipients of your message may interpret as "sour grapes". I've sent my share, and don't bother anymore. I have better things to do with my time.

Take comfort and confidence in your first pitch, your current portfolio and workload - move on. We invite ourselves for disappointment upon the decision to start a business and provide employment opportunities.

Every decline, recant, retraction etc should get a "do keep us in mind for your future tree care endeavors". First seed didn't take - plant another.
 
Good points, guys. Thanks for the perspective.

Ward, they had received a written proposal, and verbally accepted it. I usually ask for a reply so I have it in writing. This time the email reply was a different answer than the verbal. One was husband, one was wife. Tag teamed LOL.

I received an email from the landscaper saying that he is subbing out the aerial work, and that "of course I am insured, as I'm sure you are." That wasn't the question, but whatever. He is "comfortable with the level of tree work he has his guys do." In honesty, I'm glad to hear he is subbing out the technical part. Maybe it's because I asked. He had the stones to answer and did it in a civil way, so that's good.

I'll probably send a 'thank you, we're here if you need us' email to the homeowner at some point and it'll be done.

-Tom
 
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