Insurance company tells homeowner to have limbs cut.

We have a draft letter (similar to the Florida letter!!) that we have waiting for just such the occasion. We charge $150 to come out and we email the letter for free. In all but one occasion, it has been sufficient to get the insurance company to back down.

We have 1 client, however, that has clear wording in the policy that says, "no trees on property may exceed the height of the house."

We've been there a couple times. Everything is flat topped annually.


love
nick
 
Hate to derail the excellent good sense and context of this discussion but if there's a clear way out of the possible one-day, sue-swamp that will still pay.. I'm all for it. Problem I see is the customer. While I can sell them this and sell them that I don't enjoy an ongoing interface with junky real estate. From what I see the tree is ugly in its winter form. That's a strike against my interest in the restoration. I would consider other factors (forgetting the insurance company's $.02.). What side of the house is the tree on and what shade does it offer. "South" doesn't necessarily mean desireable. Southeast and southwest direction shade are seasonal (winter) suns and won't do much in summer like shading from northeast and northwest suns would do. Does the customer even know daylight from darkness. The tree just behind (neighbor's tree) looks healthy and aesthetic; can it and the client be better served by removing your object tree. Might you do a tree removal and have a tree nursery install (or you install) a 10-20' new specimen tree (this will also guage your client's passion, or lack of it, to the whole matter). In summary, while the insurance matter is the object lession and far more in worth than my interuption, I am not getting it here. The house has other trees on its property and surroundings. No real improvement to the landscaping seems evident. The customer might one day get dissastisfied by the depth of the work. There might be a happier way for all to resolving the "my backyard" paradise.
 
Last edited:
Season said:
Hate to derail the excellent good sense and context of this discussion but if there's a clear way out of the possible one-day, sue-swamp that will still pay.. I'm all for it. Problem I see is the customer. While I can sell them this and sell them that I don't enjoy an ongoing interface with junky real estate. From what I see the tree is ugly in its winter form. That's a strike against my interest in the restoration. I would consider other factors (forgetting the insurance company's $.02.). What side of the house is the tree on and what shade does it offer. "South" doesn't necessarily mean desireable. Southeast and southwest direction shade are seasonal (winter) suns and won't do much in summer like shading from northeast and northwest suns would do. Does the customer even know daylight from darkness. The tree just behind (neighbor's tree) looks healthy and aesthetic; can it and the client be better served by removing your object tree. Might you do a tree removal and have a tree nursery install (or you install) a 10-20' new specimen tree (this will also guage your client's passion, or lack of it, to the whole matter). In summary, while the insurance matter is the object lession and far more in worth than my interuption, I am not getting it here. The house has other trees on its property and surroundings. No real improvement to the landscaping seems evident. The customer might one day get dissastisfied by the depth of the work. There might be a happier way for all to resolving the "my backyard" paradise.
Click to expand...

Sorry but could you sum this up a bit? Are you saying instead of pruning or doing a full tree/ hazard assessment cut it down because there are other trees in the yard? Then plant nursery stock?

If they didn't like there tree they would have likely asked for a removal quote. It's a big jump from the insurance is making me take off a limb to remove this mature tree because why not?

Sorry if I'm totally wrong here maybe you can tell me different
 
Hi Kevin, I hate to derail the higher calling of this thread dealing with homeowners insurance but I'll try to clarify for you.
Q: Can you sum this up?
A: Client calls me, says insurance wants limbs cut (which where I live in the south wouldn't happen). Anyway, ...I write up essentially a legal doc as if I'm the go-between to a pop-up toxic waste dump (the poor tree) and my client whose temperment for this kind of biz is not disclosed. One day the customer has a tree and the next he has a legal matter over it?! To maintain my profession I draft a pruning and reduction program the customer may or may not keep up with. Meanwhile, freak tornado lays the tree on the house one day and insurance says your doc is garbage..or whatever idiot freak accident happens.
Q: Are you saying (to bypass) pruning/haz assessment (to cut it down):
A: No. I said, from what I see the tree is (1). not aesthetically pleasing - ugly, (2.) being so, my heart is not in restoration of the tree. (3.) insurance company is a P.I.T.A. so now what? Okay, I didn't say this but should have. (4.) removal is an option and would be my option (sight/site unseen) and pros/cons either way would be looked discussed - quickly, I hope. B.S.-ing may mean anemic interest.
Q: ..and plant nursery stock?
A: Maybe, but that's down the list. Customer may be happy with grass only.
Q: If they didn't like the tree wouldn't they have asked for a removal quote?
A: Yes, but did they know the tree even existed until insurance told them so? Maybe they just wanted a limb whacked for $100 and to send you away but this skips the crux of the problem - liability. Legality aside the customer either pays for a restore or a removal it seems. I'm laying two options for them to buy and; they have no choice but to do something to apparently resolve the matter. I stated how I'd prefer in a fair amount of detail to see the tree analyzed. So it's no more a limb issue. I didn't invent the problem but there is obviously a bigger problem than what the homeowner wanted, which was probably no tree limb problem at all.
No, Kevin, you are not totally wrong. You probably raised questions others had. Thanks.
 
Season said:
Hi Kevin, I hate to derail the higher calling of this thread dealing with homeowners insurance but I'll try to clarify for you.
Q: Can you sum this up?
A: Client calls me, says insurance wants limbs cut (which where I live in the south wouldn't happen). Anyway, ...I write up essentially a legal doc as if I'm the go-between to a pop-up toxic waste dump (the poor tree) and my client whose temperment for this kind of biz is not disclosed. One day the customer has a tree and the next he has a legal matter over it?! To maintain my profession I draft a pruning and reduction program the customer may or may not keep up with. Meanwhile, freak tornado lays the tree on the house one day and insurance says your doc is garbage..or whatever idiot freak accident happens.
Q: Are you saying (to bypass) pruning/haz assessment (to cut it down):
A: No. I said, from what I see the tree is (1). not aesthetically pleasing - ugly, (2.) being so, my heart is not in restoration of the tree. (3.) insurance company is a P.I.T.A. so now what? Okay, I didn't say this but should have. (4.) removal is an option and would be my option (sight/site unseen) and pros/cons either way would be looked discussed - quickly, I hope. B.S.-ing may mean anemic interest.
Q: ..and plant nursery stock?
A: Maybe, but that's down the list. Customer may be happy with grass only.
Q: If they didn't like the tree wouldn't they have asked for a removal quote?
A: Yes, but did they know the tree even existed until insurance told them so? Maybe they just wanted a limb whacked for $100 and to send you away but this skips the crux of the problem - liability. Legality aside the customer either pays for a restore or a removal it seems. I'm laying two options for them to buy and; they have no choice but to do something to apparently resolve the matter. I stated how I'd prefer in a fair amount of detail to see the tree analyzed. So it's no more a limb issue. I didn't invent the problem but there is obviously a bigger problem than what the homeowner wanted, which was probably no tree limb problem at all.
No, Kevin, you are not totally wrong. You probably raised questions others had. Thanks.
Click to expand...

Thanks
 
[QUOTE="Season, post: 404600, member: 914l hate to derail the good sense and context of this discussion but if there's a clear way out of the possible one-day, sue-swamp that will still pay.. I'm all for it. Problem I see is the customer. While I can sell them this and sell them that I don't enjoy an ongoing interface with junky real estate. From what I see the tree is ugly in its winter form. That's a strike against my interest in the restoration. I would consider other factors (forgetting the insurance company's $.02.). What side of the house is the tree on and what shade does it offer. "South" doesn't necessarily mean desireable. Southeast and southwest direction shade are seasonal (winter) suns and won't do much in summer like shading from northeast and northwest suns would do. Does the customer even know daylight from darkness. The tree just behind (neighbor's tree) looks healthy and aesthetic; can it and the client be better served by removing your object tree. Might you do a tree removal and have a tree nursery install (or you install) a 10-20' new specimen tree (this will also guage your client's passion, or lack of it, to the whole matter). In summary, while the insurance matter is the object lession and far more in worth than my interuption, I am not getting it here. The house has other trees on its property and surroundings. No real improvement to the landscaping seems evident. The customer might one day get dissastisfied by the depth of the work. There might be a happier way for all to resolving the "my backyard" paradise.[/QUOTE]

You've made me think your pretty jaded with yourself and my thought is even though I'm sure not many enjoy the interface of junky real estate as you called it . I don't choose who calls me , I just answer and give a professional experience as possible for the betterment of the view of the industry as a whole, one person at a time. I preserve what I think are shitty looking trees all the time and cut down beautiful ones just the same . Its not my choice if its not my property . I try not to get too personal about it , but stay professional about it . I mean toxic waste dump seriously? Its a tree !
 
Last edited:
Season, good point about assessing contributions of the tree--that should be part of the picture. Cooling power comes not only from shade--trees cool as they transpire moisture, and create convection currents. To say a tree makes 'no real contribution' misses a lot--wildlife value, air and water purification, etc. etc.
Judging appearances is not part of my training, so sharing those opinions good or bad is not my business, unless asked. In any case we need to look not just at present condition, but potential future condition. Like Shigo said, we need to be thinking and projecting changes that occur in tree time.

Thanks also for sharing your concerns on liability--the imaginary scenario you describe illustrates the unrealistic fears that arborists talk about but never happen in real life.

Pruning does not obligate anyone to an ongoing high maintenance regimen. On the tree in question it could be a one-time event without affecting liability. So proposing removal as the only one-time fix is not accurate.

Insurance companies are overall easy to deal with ime over 20+ years. I like making them the client. They have a lot more money than the owner. But if they say 'Jump' the professional response is not 'How high?'. As with any client, the first job is to establish the job objective by finding out more about their goals and motivations. If you don't establish the objective, you are not working to the A300 Tree Care Standard.
 
I have yet to bring my crutch as I like to call my grandfather to the property.. he is very well versed in things of this nature .. I'm curious to see what he says about this situation. Trees live a long time and it takes a long time to learn them IME.I wanted to get some good input before I did to compare and contrast thoughts. Which I feel I have . Doesn't mean more aren't welcome of course ,cause even it wasn't there ain't no stopping now:D . I realize as well that in my initial post on the subject I didn't provide a whole lot of information or pics..I will follow up with more.
Season I bet your a seasoned arborist and don't think I didn't take some good thoughts out of your post as well ..thanks for your input. I enjoy alot of perspectives. There's something to be grasped from everything this world offers us . Just gotta be willing to reach out and grab it.:tanguero:
 
This is an issue in our industry as insurers seek more ways to reduce their exposure. The owner has always had a "legal matter over it". The law is pretty clear on this, If it's on your property then you have a duty of care. Being ignorant of it's existence is not an argument that'll stand up. This reminds me of our town's DPW supervisor telling the EC chair to stop looking up he didn't want to know if there was anything broken or hanging. He thought he could then be absolved of liability.

What I see is something we need to move away from in our business, acting like trained monkeys who jump when some says to. Any call no matter what they say, is the starting point of a sales process that should be directed by you and guided by the prospective client's input. As mentioned above, it all starts with the objective, although that may be a moving target. Understanding who the client is, helps in drawing down to some options that make sense. Whether its putting up a fight with the insurance co, pruning, removal, support, or any combination, it begins with the tree expert taking the lead.
 
Treetopflyer - sounds like you have a good sense of people. Jaded? howdja guess? Critical is probably more the term but the two overlap and it tends to serve me well. My business is different than you dedicated arbs. I am legit, but work more with dedicated customers and their referrals. They seek my opinion from time to time. This differs from a straight "analysis" and workorder.
Contract workers can leave the discussion here as this won't do much more than agitate and disgust them. All that to say, quoting guymayor loosely, "what is the objective and the client's goals and motivations?" However, when the client asks - and they do ask - what is my opinion based on the surroundings I feel free to offer it? I realize this does not work in contract world with unknown clients and will cause abuse of your time and lost profit.

From my angle I see a tree leaning into the house firstly and why is the tree leaning if I can discern? Second, if you renovate the tree into something beautiful, h.o. is still gonna worry it could come through the roof so what is gained? (I'm serving the repeat business client's interest). Not that I wouldn't comply with whatever her request. By the way, all of this over a limb and there's the kid down the street with a bowsaw?.. Guymayor, I did overstate my line on the liability. But I hate putting in a legal doc or something resembing it a disclaimer with a job. I did that once two years ago and the lady looked sorely wounded, which left me squirming all the way out the door.

I don't wish to cut down every tree I don't like, and I do things the customer wants where I'd rather do something else. Finally, for the big take-down, I generally don't do those as I'm not equipped and we have teams of prowling cutters here (don't have respect to call many of them buzzers) to do that.

Shigo's position (we need to be thinking and projecting changes that occur in tree time) is a good one you quote, guymanor, as is your own note to "look not only at present but to future condition of your work."

In this situation, if the property is as wooded as it appears and the tree is struggling for light as the leftward canopy lean shows and the tree in-behind will be needing the space.. why not also put these variables to work ..in a few seconds. A customer needs motivation and a goal but may also need info to do that. I can fly in and fly out (actually no flying here) with a job done and a check, but I want the visit a pleasant one for the homeowner if I can achieve that.

Very good points on homeowners insurance and insurers have been brought up, appreciate all the insights. I steered out of the topic but a third party insurer has been the central theme and it has been well discussed and very helpful. An event that might get ignored could/should be looked at even briefly for solid consequence.
 
Last edited:
Season said:
My business is different than you dedicated arbs. I am legit, but work more with dedicated customers and their referrals. They seek my opinion from time to time. This differs from a straight "analysis" and workorder.
Contract workers can leave the discussion here as this won't do much more than agitate and disgust them. All that to say, quoting guymayor loosely, "what is the objective and the client's goals and motivations?" However, when the client asks - and they do ask - what is my opinion based on the surroundings I feel free to offer it? I realize this does not work in contract world with unknown clients and will cause abuse of your time and lost profit.
Click to expand...
You lost me here or I'll say this is a gray area for me . Can you reword this for my little brain to maybe understand ? :raro2:
 
I'm also hazy in this area with the insurance companies. When I've dealt with them before it was always storm damage clean up.
In this case the tree has been there for 40,60,80 years (I don't know it's age) but the insurance company covered you and happily took your money last year no problem so my questions are.

1. What changed, did the property get sold, etc.?

2. What legal right/standing does the insurance company have to tell you to cut your healthy tree if it is not currently or previously meddling with your building? I know some city/town bylaws can be in place for dead or hazard trees but this is different.

3. Does your insurance guy do random house visits to know about this certain limb or what initiated the letter?
 
Just to back up ,because I feel like the lack of background information I've provided on the original post, leads back to the objetive which always comes first.I dont like looking at the computer for too long at any given time and ,hence my short posts . My apologies.
The customer whom I'm dealing with is a sixty something year old Swedish gal ..probably right up a couple of your guys allee:love:. She doesn't like the fact that the tree originates from neighbors yard and she's really set in her ways , thinks its the neighbors problem, doesn't wanna spend the money on it, but I reiterated the property line goes to the sky ,and at about 20 feet up the tree trunk is sixty percent over her side and the whole crown is over her property and barely overhanging the roof with a few limbs noted in pic from early post. So I finnally got her to agree she should do something about it after all ins.co set a date of dec. 20th for roof to be clear of limbs. She is a widow and limited to what she can spend I'm told ..on a budget ,whatever she said to that effect. So in the mean time I sell her on action needs to be taken. Give her one option to knock the dead out ,few small hangers over the roof accompanied by a letter addressing what ins. company wants done vs. what is better for the longevity of the tree and to keep from creating a more of a problem. She liked that option ,but we never settled on cost of that option yet. I basically was just getting my point across I'm interested in her conundrum and the man for the job. As we're going over the situation I was poking around I make way through the thick bed of english ivy bed around the base and up the tree ,theres little brown mushrooms feeding on something ?? I feel like with the location of the tree northeast corner and the tree being close to the one next to it three or four feet from buttress to butress. The lean is more phototropic than anything ,but I didn't get enough information during the initial visit to make any quick decision as to the tree's fate wanted to dig a bit remove some ivy ,poke around the critical root zone and get real information. I've worked on the property ten plus years ago under my grandfather whom has worked for this gal for twenty years.He's been an arborist for sixty years , done his own thing fifty of them and have never even had a number in the phone book or a website. I continue that tradition today..if I told you my business was anything other than a word of mouth small family operation it would be bullshit. It didn't get that way from pulling any bullshit. So she will probably follow my recomendation and I want to feel good about the ultimate choice to be made. Enough b.s. here's more info ..
If I had to guess and I'll be modest Its 350,000 dollar property and it does have a about a dozen or so mature trees left on property and at least that many more plus some of understory ornamentals and rows of evergreens along quite a bit of the half acre lot . This property and area was hit hard by a big bitch named Sandy . The back yard lost quite a few large trees and this is probably why ins. Co. Is making requests and were not just gonna remove it unless its truly compromised ..the fact that it stood through direct hit from sandy two years ago must mean something when many others didn't .That said unless there's some real root decay which if its any relation to the crown density shouldn't be too horrible, and based on clients interests the tree will probably be around a while longer ,hopefully a little cleaner looking and bit less lopsided than it was before. Not saying the tree won't come down if she can't sleep well at night over it . I told her I take credit cards;). Tomorrow I have a big cracked limb on another site to tackle near by and was gonna spend some time over at this one , I'll take some pics!
 
Last edited:
KevinS said:
I'm also hazy in this area with the insurance companies. When I've dealt with them before it was always storm damage clean up.
In this case the tree has been there for 40,60,80 years (I don't know it's age) but the insurance company covered you and happily took your money last year no problem so my questions are.

1. What changed, did the property get sold, etc.?

2. What legal right/standing does the insurance company have to tell you to cut your healthy tree if it is not currently or previously meddling with your building? I know some city/town bylaws can be in place for dead or hazard trees but this is different.

3. Does your insurance guy do random house visits to know about this certain limb or what initiated the letter?
Click to expand...
I feel like its very situational and dependent on the fine print of the agreement you sign to with h.o. insurance company .
I can only speculate on the third question that the company wants to inspect what they insure.
 
Stepped on a two inch ten penny sticking out of a board covered with leaves while helping a buddy move some blocks around his yard , of course I didn't have my climbing boots on yet which would've helped, instead I had some thin soled old piece of shit slip on boat style shoes, feeling pretty fucked right now ,may not get up to the site for a few days at this rate. I can see a blood spot on top of foot lined up where it puntured. I'm pissed .
 
Last edited:
You want to see more than a spot of blood--cut it open and let it bleed, to flush out the wound. Had a tetanus shot lately?

Is all this work on this oak part of a free estimate?
 
guymayor said:
You want to see more than a spot of blood--cut it open and let it bleed, to flush out the wound. Had a tetanus shot lately?

Is all this work on this oak part of a free estimate?
Click to expand...
Haha ,yeah I let it bleed for a while. All caught up on tetnus. Thanks!
Lol , of course I give away free services all the time ,its how I stay in business , and feed my family!
Not to say I'm not giving a verbal or a written quote for that matter, of a price out for "free"when its my prerogative to do so when I choose as part of my business strategy.
Or that I'm charging like I would to bring the show over and do some real work with a crew either . Im poking around a bit and examing and evaluating . I know your theory on what you would charge I think , I'm just not there yet , I take it as a learning experience as well as a pay check , I'm not that good so I don't charge as much . I'm happy ,its cool.
 
Last edited:
Insurance co's do inspect properties and do issue work orders like this. I've done several. In one instance the absurdity was requesting pruning of limbs over the house while ignoring a massive dead tulip out front. I did some reductions that satisfied the insurer. Treetopflyer, you've got a bit of a pickle with the added variable of the fungi. Good luck with the foot!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

New threads New posts

Back
Top Bottom