My question to the industry is this, was it more beneficial to the industry that I did what I did or would the industry have been more greatly benefited had I tried to reinvent another piece of kit, say for giggles the mag bag?
Furthermore, patent law is way more complicated and intertwined in your life than you can imagine, it drives innovation. For thousands of years innovation was stifled by the lack of reward. The only use of time that was rewarded was production, not innovation. We are a production based industry, this is hard to comprehend even for myself. In 1790 the patent office was opened, less then 30 years later the industrial revolution was in full-swing. In that time we transitioned from thousands of years of travel by foot or beast to cars and airplanes, this transition in innovation took less than 100 years. This was because people who innovated were able to raise their families as opposed to starve. This was accomplished because of patent law. Ideas and concepts have only been treated as property for 226 years, in that 226 year period we have been blessed with a rate of innovation growth that is unfathomable. For reference it took China's entire empire this amount of time to build The Great Wall of China, Records show theirs tools did not change dramatically in this period. To compare, we have seen a greater change in tools in each of our lives in our own industry. This is a small relative field compared to the men building The Great Wall of China and this is due to patent law.
Honestly, you can love the idea of patents or you can hate them, but there is no escaping the benefits. Products with patents surround you, the cars we drive, the homes we live in, the A/C that cools us, the food we eat, and even some of the trees we plant and climb have patents on them.
Furthermore, patent law is way more complicated and intertwined in your life than you can imagine, it drives innovation. For thousands of years innovation was stifled by the lack of reward. The only use of time that was rewarded was production, not innovation. We are a production based industry, this is hard to comprehend even for myself. In 1790 the patent office was opened, less then 30 years later the industrial revolution was in full-swing. In that time we transitioned from thousands of years of travel by foot or beast to cars and airplanes, this transition in innovation took less than 100 years. This was because people who innovated were able to raise their families as opposed to starve. This was accomplished because of patent law. Ideas and concepts have only been treated as property for 226 years, in that 226 year period we have been blessed with a rate of innovation growth that is unfathomable. For reference it took China's entire empire this amount of time to build The Great Wall of China, Records show theirs tools did not change dramatically in this period. To compare, we have seen a greater change in tools in each of our lives in our own industry. This is a small relative field compared to the men building The Great Wall of China and this is due to patent law.
Honestly, you can love the idea of patents or you can hate them, but there is no escaping the benefits. Products with patents surround you, the cars we drive, the homes we live in, the A/C that cools us, the food we eat, and even some of the trees we plant and climb have patents on them.
moss
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Carlisle, Massachusetts, U.S.
Completely agree on the patent concept. Unfortunately it's heavily abused these days. In the case of tree gear innovations, if anyone can make a patent work for them, all the better.
-AJ
-AJ
Simpleiowaguy
Participating member
- Location
- Vinton
I'm guessing the problem is that instead of just throwing in another piece of bungee on the saka..... haas gets to ding you to send it back in and replace it. It's like having to rent specialty tools so u can work on your own car type of thing in my eyesI thought the saying was "necessity is the mother of invention" I guess we should change it to "patent laws, the mother of invention"
Thanks for the history lesson though, good entertainment.
Just to be clear, we are talking about a KNEE ASCENDER! 99.9% of the world could give a shit less. You're making waves in a tiny community of people who actually DO care, it seems unproductive to draw lines.
Now that you are here though.... What is really the trouble with SAKA?
Merle Nelson
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- SF Bay Area, CA
Treehive I'm not 'the industry' so wont try to answer the question you ask directly.
I appreciate what it takes for a person to come up with a product and market it. I do think the inventor is rightfully entitled to all rewards available from that and those protected by law.
I have heard about the costs associated with bringing many different products to market in our industry. Not only is there the financial cost but, also the stress on the family and what one did not do for ones family with those consumed finances. One inventor listed the in ground pool he wished he had bought for the kids, the trips and vacations, the new car for the misses.
It seems to strike us as funny to mock people often times. I will take seriously the 'beliefs of ' a 'patent mocker' when they invent something, put thousand or tens of thousands into its development and marketing and then give it away. Till then it's just humans being human.
Speaking of being human, I commented about phrases being patented (copywrited) a number of posts back. I had been reading this thread and got a bit caught up in it and just expressed something that I have found ridiculous. I in no way have those same feelings about the legal defense of a lawful patent. I believe it is 0nes right to all just benefits.
Also, in addition to having an early Haas that I never learned to use properly, I bought a Saka once I got re-energized about SRT. If there is something due you for your original efforts in development I would want to send you or the charity of your choice the proper amount of money. Please just PM me with this if you don't see it as useful to post that here.
To those that believe this or similar inventor issues are a joke I would ask how important it is to them that they express that? In the four years that I have been on the Buzz I know of at least three inventors that have been 'offended' out of the invention business for our industry. As someone said, it is a relatively small industry. How many can we afford to lose?
I appreciate what it takes for a person to come up with a product and market it. I do think the inventor is rightfully entitled to all rewards available from that and those protected by law.
I have heard about the costs associated with bringing many different products to market in our industry. Not only is there the financial cost but, also the stress on the family and what one did not do for ones family with those consumed finances. One inventor listed the in ground pool he wished he had bought for the kids, the trips and vacations, the new car for the misses.
It seems to strike us as funny to mock people often times. I will take seriously the 'beliefs of ' a 'patent mocker' when they invent something, put thousand or tens of thousands into its development and marketing and then give it away. Till then it's just humans being human.
Speaking of being human, I commented about phrases being patented (copywrited) a number of posts back. I had been reading this thread and got a bit caught up in it and just expressed something that I have found ridiculous. I in no way have those same feelings about the legal defense of a lawful patent. I believe it is 0nes right to all just benefits.
Also, in addition to having an early Haas that I never learned to use properly, I bought a Saka once I got re-energized about SRT. If there is something due you for your original efforts in development I would want to send you or the charity of your choice the proper amount of money. Please just PM me with this if you don't see it as useful to post that here.
To those that believe this or similar inventor issues are a joke I would ask how important it is to them that they express that? In the four years that I have been on the Buzz I know of at least three inventors that have been 'offended' out of the invention business for our industry. As someone said, it is a relatively small industry. How many can we afford to lose?
M
Merle, I don't think it necessary to travel to the sun to feel it's warmth. Is every invention (Arboricultural or otherwise) worthy of your adulation and respect, irrespective of it's intrinsic or practical value, or the motivations of said inventor (the pursuit of wealth, philanthropic, whatever), or the "sacrifices" they have made to bring the invention to market? Real pity those kids need shoes, and wife says there is no food in the cupboard.
If inventors are an easily offended, dewy-eyed, thin-skinned subset of the human population, I almost feel bad for them. It is a risk vs reward situation, and choosing to cash in one's life savings or maxing out credit cards, or not being around to see your kids grow up doesn't earn my sympathy. It's a choice you choose to make. Mebbe greed has clouded someone's judgement, (this thing is gonna make me a lot of $$$),
A charm offensive by Treehive doesn't negate the fact that commissioning a lawyer to do a hatchet job on another member has as it's intended result the SAKA becoming an endangered species at risk of extinction. Did Don Vito Corleone deserve a break, and have clean hands because he had others whack the competition? We are not talking about Albert Sweitzer taking care of leprous patients in Gabon. Treehive ain't no martyr here. Mebbe a martyr complex though.
Merle, I don't think it necessary to travel to the sun to feel it's warmth. Is every invention (Arboricultural or otherwise) worthy of your adulation and respect, irrespective of it's intrinsic or practical value, or the motivations of said inventor (the pursuit of wealth, philanthropic, whatever), or the "sacrifices" they have made to bring the invention to market? Real pity those kids need shoes, and wife says there is no food in the cupboard.
If inventors are an easily offended, dewy-eyed, thin-skinned subset of the human population, I almost feel bad for them. It is a risk vs reward situation, and choosing to cash in one's life savings or maxing out credit cards, or not being around to see your kids grow up doesn't earn my sympathy. It's a choice you choose to make. Mebbe greed has clouded someone's judgement, (this thing is gonna make me a lot of $$$),
A charm offensive by Treehive doesn't negate the fact that commissioning a lawyer to do a hatchet job on another member has as it's intended result the SAKA becoming an endangered species at risk of extinction. Did Don Vito Corleone deserve a break, and have clean hands because he had others whack the competition? We are not talking about Albert Sweitzer taking care of leprous patients in Gabon. Treehive ain't no martyr here. Mebbe a martyr complex though.
evo
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- My Island, WA
Really, how different are they? They both have a piece of bungee shoved up the nether regions of a piece of textile. One has one length, and the other has one doubled over. Both serve the same function, in a very similar way, just with a few tweaks. I highly doubt the SAKA would have been made if it were not for the HAAS. I was all for it as a open source deal, and even when it was made to order here and there. Soon as it was commercialized, it left a unpleasant flavor in my mouth. So I made my own HAAS, SAKA. Then made my own Velox out of some double braid cover newer pantin (free from Treestuff) and a $3 hardware store pulley. Both HAAS and Mumford lost out on my $...
Evo, get a blind guy to handle a SAKA and a Haas and tell you they are the same thing. He won't, cause they aren't.
Then, hand him an X-Rigging Ring and an ABR Rigging Thimble ( "Thimble", get it? Not a ring) and see if he can tell they're different.
This isn't a Game of Thrones........it is a Game of Weasels
Then, hand him an X-Rigging Ring and an ABR Rigging Thimble ( "Thimble", get it? Not a ring) and see if he can tell they're different.
This isn't a Game of Thrones........it is a Game of Weasels
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evo
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- My Island, WA
I do get it... The styles of bungee ascender's are damn close to the same thing, not like the Barnek rope walker, nor like the over the shoulder, nor the one around the waist. The rings (thimbles), porti's, and all the other knock offs are all one in the same thing as well.. Knock offs...
Its nearly like comparing the ZK1 to the ZK2. They are different yes, but also the same. I see more difference between the Stein porti's and the buckingham porti's than the SAKA and HAAS...
Then there are situations like Sherril Tree. The rip off on the bigshot, and the exclusive distributorship of silky saws. And many others too... Vote with your Dollars (or looines) I do.
Its nearly like comparing the ZK1 to the ZK2. They are different yes, but also the same. I see more difference between the Stein porti's and the buckingham porti's than the SAKA and HAAS...
Then there are situations like Sherril Tree. The rip off on the bigshot, and the exclusive distributorship of silky saws. And many others too... Vote with your Dollars (or looines) I do.
WaitakKauri
Branched out member
- Location
- NZ
I can only speak for myself.
You've posed a binary question which I interrupt as
a) an inference to that which I understand is your legal threat to TreeStuff if they don't stop sell SAKAs, and
b) a mocking of another's invention where there is an inference that inventor is the person you believe is infringing your patent.
I won't be answering your question. I'm also not in your situation where you probably feel a necessity to threaten TreeStuff - an industry supplier and manufacturer which openly shares their interest in arb innovation. I don't know the impact to you if your patent is being infringed.
What I know is, a patent infringement has not been proven.
If I was TreeStuff, I'd write back to you and say prove it mate or bugger off.
If I was SAKA, I'd be pissed and write to you and TreeStuff and threaten anticompetitive behaviour.
If I were you, I'd be pissed too. I'd talk less code, share some creative solutions that protect my patent, focus on good product features and keep myself in good standing with my community (of buyers, potential buyers and influencers).
All of this isn't binary, everyone is pissed off, but nothing is moving anyone forward really except lawyers - and good on them, and maybe a few extra sales for you with TreeStuff.
Here's an out of the box option... How about you and @yoyoman fly here to Auckland for a weekend? We'll go climbing. We can chat about saving the world and maybe sort this much smaller issue. Flights are on sale and probably less than a few visits to a lawyer. Our scenery is much nicer than a law office. I'll find good trees and space to talk. We can rope walk till sunset. I'll use a Jamar with foot loop or GB rope walker and a foot ascender, you use what you please. Everything can be off the record in a neutral space and there's no pressure for any specific outcome. No one need know you've come. If nothing changes, just coming and meeting face to face is a step forward and you'll have had tree time in an amazing place. However... if everyone is in the right mindset, there could a nice breakthrough that lets everyone do their thing.
I'll step off my milk crate now. Cheers & happy climbing
I'll let the lawyers argue patent law. My dollar vote goes to the product I feel offers superior build quality and performance. To me that's the SAKA.
I recommend people go read the actual patent linked in the first post in its entirety. To me it sounds nothing like the SAKA and the differences are glaringly obvious once you read the claims.
I recommend people go read the actual patent linked in the first post in its entirety. To me it sounds nothing like the SAKA and the differences are glaringly obvious once you read the claims.
jmaher
Branched out member
- Location
- new brunswick, canada
So.. to me,
The HAAS is a major improvement over beraneks rope walking system. The SAKA is a major improvement over the HAAS.
End of story. Not a ripoff, a WAY better mouse trap. Evolve or die, HAAS.
Or.. i suppose, evolve or sue.
The HAAS is a major improvement over beraneks rope walking system. The SAKA is a major improvement over the HAAS.
End of story. Not a ripoff, a WAY better mouse trap. Evolve or die, HAAS.
Or.. i suppose, evolve or sue.
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I disagree.....have sat here for days pondering if to reply...I have had them all...velox..SAKA...clip HAAS....none works better for me than the second gen HAAS.....folks that don't get it just cannot adjust the bungee right and never took the time to find the sweet spot much like a finding a runner's sweet spot for a particular rope....the HAAS just coils up for easy storage.....Michael was first with the HAAS just like buckingham was with the ring/ring....sorry Richard but that is the truth...I am not choosing sides here when it comes to the patent fued...but seems folk are saying the SAKA is superior and that is bull..it is just preference....I can fly up a rope with my HAAS and old pantin no biner to lock....fast and smooth as silk with runner or wrench...no kickout either...it is all about form and HAAS adjustment...I dislike a webbing footloop like no tomorrow....to each his own...
jmaher
Branched out member
- Location
- new brunswick, canada
Jerry beranek was first. The HAAS was just a refined version of that. And to be honest.. I highly doubt beranek was first. I refuse to believe cavers didn't have this figured out a long time ago. Regardless, you're right it's preference. Mine happens to be the SAKA. It just performs better. Without adjustment, out of the box awesomeness. Anyways, @Pelorus made a good point about treestuff and the rings. That's didn't seem to ruffle any feathers. But as far as a small guy like Richard goes.. "bah, feed him to the wolves." What happened to fostering innovation? If nothing else improvement through alteration.. this sucks.
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Steve Connally
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Suffolk, Virginia
Maybe be richard's adaptation for lack of a better word considerting the current litigation should be rewarded some royalties if haas wins the suit. The hass. Hass velox and haas saka or would the new haas look like the saka but be called something else with no credit to the one who came up with the idea? Hey joe, I have a way to make your widget even better. Joe: how? Explanation comes and is used. Idea person is left in the dust and joe sells more.
jmaher
Branched out member
- Location
- new brunswick, canada
@swingdude As is what's being discussed. Due to a looming potential lawsuit (my understanding..) people may not be able to experience the SAKA. Which directly affects their ability to chose, does it not?
I preferred ABR rings. But if Antal decided to throw a shit fit, I wouldn't have had that choice, would I?
I preferred ABR rings. But if Antal decided to throw a shit fit, I wouldn't have had that choice, would I?
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