HAAS knee ascender patent

[jmaher]

Maybe be richard's adaptation for lack of a better word considerting the current litigation should be rewarded some royalties if haas wins the suit. The hass. Hass velox and haas saka or would the new haas look like the saka but be called something else with no credit to the one who came up with the idea? Hey joe, I have a way to make your widget even better. Joe: how? Explanation comes and is used. Idea person is left in the dust and joe sells more.

Who deserves the royalties, Steve? I'm not clear on my understanding of your post.

 

[treebing]

On rope has a bungee rope walker setup and credits it back to the 1960s. I attempted the on rope version back in my f8 revolver days but found it to cumbersome to figure out. The Haas is different and the running it through a tube was a huge breakthrough that has changed all our lives. There would be no SAKA without the coming of the HAAS. But it also seems there would be no Velox without some input of the SAKA. I remember sweating bullets when the HH came out thinking no one would ever buy a wrench again. But I soon concluded that the HH only has helped RW sales by bringing more people into the SRT fold. Same is true for the BDB and the Akimbo and the runner are mutually beneficial. They also bring ideas foward that someone else may evolve into the truly most awesomeness . All of these bring more exposure to the technique. Its like gas stations and fast food joints benefits from other gas stations and fast food joints on the same intersection. More than one makes it a destination, rather than an anomally. They also are also a melting pot of ideas that just keeps on getting better.

That said, patents do require lawers and money and they only work if they are enforced. If you make a patent but don't enforce it, than the patent is meaningless and you just spent all that money on a worthless piece of paper. You can't fault Frankenhauser for doing what he needs to do to protect his considerable financial investment. It is also difficult to do anything with a patentless product other than manufacture and sell it on your own. Hopefully the SAKA and HAAS can find a way to work it out. Maybe a royalty arrangement can be worked out between the two so Saka pays haas a token for the use of the haas patent, thus making the lawyers happy and the patent valid. Maybe the same is true for the sewing technique of the SAKA also present in the velox. Personally I am glad that there are two people working on the solution of the best knee ascender rather than one. Together you have improved all our lives. Thank you both!

 

[NE Tree]

That was an excellent, well thought out response Kevin

 

[Steve Connally]

What I was proposing, evidently not very well written was if person x had called person y and said, hey I have an idea how to make your product better, would person y have given some kind of credit to the person with the idea? So I guess what I'm saying since we are being so introspective and judging characters here is, Would have HAAS said hey thanks SAKA for the idea. Let me count you in on some of the pot of gold on the adaptation of my product. After all it was your idea that lead me to another option of the climbing community. Or would it have been a thanks for the idea with no thanks for the contribution. If we are going to walk on morally high ground then the contributor deserved what they deserve. In simpler terms. I sell a $7000 job to the neighbor for the boss. The bid is a home run. We make money. Should I not be entitled to something since without me making the sale there potentially would not have been the sale? I am not owed it, is it not the rite thing to do though? Maybe Dale Thomas sends me 50 kiwi klimbers. Hey steve can you help me out and be a point of contact for the USA? Sure I love your product so much I'll put all my time and energy in this for free. Perhaps if we were best friends, but I wouldn't even ask my best friend to do this for me. Does it help? Tried multiple analogies to make my point more clear. If its Richards idea that improved the product I feel he is entitled to something. Hypothetically speaking. However I doubt he would have gotten it. I really can't say that with any fairness since I don't know the patent holder personally. Maybe he's a stand up guy and would have. I haven't met very many people in my life that are that honest and who do unto others....blah blah blah. Mybe this doesn't really have any relevance to the thread. I just felt like writing. lol

 

[jmaher]

What I was proposing, evidently not very well written was if person x had called person y and said, hey I have an idea how to make your product better, would person y have given some kind of credit to the person with the idea? So I guess what I'm saying since we are being so introspective and judging characters here is, Would have HAAS said hey thanks SAKA for the idea. Let me count you in on some of the pot of gold on the adaptation of my product. After all it was your idea that lead me to another option of the climbing community. Or would it have been a thanks for the idea with no thanks for the contribution. If we are going to walk on morally high ground then the contributor deserved what they deserve. In simpler terms. I sell a $7000 job to the neighbor for the boss. The bid is a home run. We make money. Should I not be entitled to something since without me making the sale there potentially would not have been the sale? I am not owed it, is it not the rite thing to do though? Maybe Dale Thomas sends me 50 kiwi klimbers. Hey steve can you help me out and be a point of contact for the USA? Sure I love your product so much I'll put all my time and energy in this for free. Perhaps if we were best friends, but I wouldn't even ask my best friend to do this for me. Does it help? Tried multiple analogies to make my point more clear. If its Richards idea that improved the product I feel he is entitled to something. Hypothetically speaking. However I doubt he would have gotten it. I really can't say that with any fairness since I don't know the patent holder personally. Maybe he's a stand up guy and would have. I haven't met very many people in my life that are that honest and who do unto others....blah blah blah. Mybe this doesn't really have any relevance to the thread. I just felt like writing. lol

I understand completely now, and agree.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Swingdude: "Michael was first with the HAAS just like buckingham was with the ring/ring"

Wrong...the ring/ring concept was originated by Frederid/Francois [who also are credited with developing the Butterfly harness which was a big change in the way harnesses had been configured] and used, as well as manufactured, in Europe well before Ken Palmer got his US Patent. This isn't very well known.


jmahaer: "Jerry beranek was first. The HAAS was just a refined version of that. And to be honest.. I highly doubt beranek was first. I refuse to believe cavers didn't have this figured out a long time ago. "

Jerry certainly popularized the use of a knee ascender in the arborist profession. Go back and find a copy of the first edition of 'On Rope' and you'll see it in an illustration. My guess is that before that there were plenty of illustrations in 'Nylon Highway'.

Patent and copyrights are interesting critters. Make a claim and defend it.

There are few original thoughts...mostly variations on a theme.

 

[treebing]

So without a patent you cannot have someone else manufacture the product for you?

no, you can, but it is more difficult and not as potentially lucrative.
In this day in age, a youtube/ patent means a lot especially in a small field like ours that is well connected. A lot of manufacturers recognize that and are more concerned about their image than anything. But it also seems to vary from manufacturer to manufacturer how they deal with things. Having a patent in your hand definitely helps a lot in the conversation. Many won't even start the conversation without one. Definitely no one wants to manufacture or sell something that could possibly be a violation of someone else's patent or even a patent that someone comes up with at a later date and then comes back and sues and makes you prove you have a right to make it.

Basically, regardless of what you do, it all comes down to how much money you can afford to give to lawyers. It is very frustrating when it costs $250 for them to read a letter, $250 to write a response, and $250 to send. They also write in a foreign language that I cannot comprehend and they have been through years of training to learn. Like anything there is a cost vs. risk analysis you have to make when starting the process. Its a lot of time as well, and can be infuriating. A lot of props to HAAS for sticking with it and getting something for the record books.

 

[Boomslang]

You can't fault Frankenhauser for doing what he needs to do to protect his considerable financial investment.

I'm going to talk out my ass here.....but isn't it a considerable financial investment only because he pursued a patent, which involved costly lawyers and patent fees? Not to offend Michael, but he didn't have to deal with all of the R&D normally attributed to new products. He took a piece of tenex, spliced it, stuck a bungee cord in it and slapped on an ascender. Where his real investment enters is in the time he put in to playing with the design and for the original thought. Not worthless investments, but surely not financially debilitating. He could have taken his idea and $80 worth of material, approached a retailer and said, "Hey, I have this cool idea for a knee ascender. Wanna make/sell them?" or something to that effect. Most would jump on board (like they did with the SAKA) and Michael would make a little coin for his tinkering.

 

[treebing]

I have a patent for the wrench, I have pursued one with the runner and do not know where that will go there it is a very complex peice and like Paul said, contains ideas that are not necessarily "mine" I made it under a sort of open source philosophy with tech shop and the maker movement, obviously i do want to make mone with it. Likewise with the quickie. There is already a patent on the slic pin, then there is a shackle. Putting two and two together isn't necessarily patentable. Like the f8 revolver is maybe a new idea but is it patentable. The more I know about the more I realize the less I know and I am happy and have regret with all the decisions I have made regarding the matter.

I think you greatly underestimate the time and thought it has taken Haas to bring the idea of a tube for the bungee into something we can all use.

 

[islandarb]

Now I will not hold my mouth...just because you like the SAKA Levi it does not take away from the brilliance of the tube....when the HAAS hit the market we were all using a footy and handled ascender frog walking...that was cool for initial ascent but I also had now got my first runner well a bit after my original HAAS and the handled ascender footloop biz was fucked for that...had to protect my bird...so the HAAS was sick and I took to it nicely...Richard started making SAKAs a bit after.....the buzz will have the timeline in archive...really not wanting to get involved in this..but I know how the HAAS got my accents flying

 

[Steve Connally]

But Swing, you don't like the saka but do like the HAAS. We all know that. Not really the point of this thread I don't think. Love ya brother but it's not about what you think is best. It's about the who's screwing who sort of game! Not pinging on you man but you have stated several times that you think the HAAS is perfect and the SAKA isn't. Just like you love the pantin and I hate hate hate it. It's good to have choice. Very good to have choice. Please don't ever hold your mouth. You wouldn't be you!

 

[islandarb]

Well Swing, the thing is... I don't even use a knee ascender, bra.

And the thing is Levi I am cool with that....because it is your style...love individuality...so many gear choices I stay away from....ABR rings etc....I think I just need to stay out of this...because both parties have been solid to me...and I respect both...hope this situation is solved with both parties getting their needs met...would like the SAKA be available to those that wish one...I am out....

 

[moss]

Great description by Kevin of the "open source" process to bring the RR into being. Surveyor was already a big part of the ZK-2, if I recall correctly Surveyor suggested the bollard to replace a bolt in the top of the ZK-1. Akimbo follows in that "tradition", learning from the BDB and the RR. It really is a beautiful vision: climber/inventors collaborating selflessly to create revolutionary tools for climbers. I don't know for sure but it feels Like Richard was continuing in that spirit, I certainly saw the SAKA as an iteration on the Haas, Richard's vision of making it better, much like the leapfrogging innovations of the RW, HH, BDB, RR, Akimbo etc. That will probably be looked back on as the golden age of tree gear innovation. The alternative is the slow in-house development of companies like Petzl, all black-boxed, and because of that probably not as responsive to the real needs of the climbers out there. I'm not optimistic for a happy negotiation/resolution between the HASS/SAKA creators, it's already gotten too defensive, once that happens it's game over, batten down the hatches.
-AJ

 

[ARLO]

Upon reading about the Hass a few years back, I was always puzzled by suggestions that the general concept was something quite novel. When in fact, what makes it work is the bungee....regardless of whether its attached or threaded through....something Beranek appears to have pioneered years before, but seemingly gets no recognition for. Jerry must surely have read all the Hass hysteria since it first came about, but said nothing the whole time. I could never understand that.

And cavers were using bungies for knee and foot ascenders long before Jerry had the idea. I suspect that is why Jerry has not felt compelled to jump into the fray.

 

[knothead]

On rope has a bungee rope walker setup and credits it back to the 1960s. I attempted the on rope version back in my f8 revolver days but found it to cumbersome to figure out.... Together you have improved all our lives. Thank you both!

Slight sideways detour. I had no idea what the f8 revolver was, so I found an old video by Kevin. All I can say is thank goodness for everyone that keeps advancing the art! That looked exhausting.

Mark

 

[colb]

I think I respect inventors, but won't know how much I should respect them until I invent something.

 

[WaitakKauri]

Ok, so I've finished reading the original Haas patent (as per OP). There are very specific attributes of the Haas, that make it a Haaas, that the SAKA simply doesn't have and couldn't have and still be a SAKA.

I'm certain Richard will get his patent.

There doesn't seem to be a simple way to find patent applications so I can't look up SAKA yet.

Anyway, I'm just interested in this whole patent thing. I want both products available and everyone doing their good thing.

 

[macswan]

Slight sideways detour. I had no idea what the f8 revolver was, so I found an old video by Kevin. All I can say is thank goodness for everyone that keeps advancing the art! That looked exhausting.

Mark

Wow, thanks for that. Never seen that vid. Like a time capsule

 

[islandarb]

Wow, thanks for that. Never seen that vid. Like a time capsule

Where have you been Mac...hibernating...winter is over bro..SRT is well into summer...lol

 

[Leroy]

Okay fellas, this has gotten well out of hand. Now for a demonstration in true philanthropy, an act for the greater good of humanity! Here it is boys, get out your pencils, get the phones ready... hell, call your lawyers right now!

My 10million dollar UN-PATENTED genius invention....

Been looking all your life for that perfect sauce, you know the one that leaves nothing to be desired? Tired of plain old ketchup with your fish sticks??? Mustard on your tater tots got you down??? Look no further, the King of Condiments is knocking at your door, the Sauce of Sauces... the Duke of Dips... Introducing....... RANCHEQUE!!!! It's really quite simple, take some ranch, some bbq, mix that shit together...Viola!

Just remember, when you're running to the bank with your massive royalty checks each month, just remember where you got this idea from.

Really, I want nothing in return, not even a mention on the bottle or anything. Although, some sort of play on my name might work... "RockettSauce" for example would sell like hotcakes. If Mac makes it to the patent office first, perhaps "SwanSauce" would work, I don't know.... That part is up to you guys, take the money and run!!!!