Grassroots for Bernie Sanders 2016

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Here's the difference between you and me Mac. We both claim to have strong beliefs. I strive every day to match my actions with my beliefs. Often I fall short, but when I'm confronted with a discrepancy--I do my best to put myself in check. You, like so many liberals, have been told what to think by the media, Hollywood, public education, etc. So you go around echoing those ideas. But, they mean little to you in the way you conduct your day-to-day life. Sort of the way Al Gore spouts off about climate change while he's zipping around in his jet. Sort of like the Pope talking about how great socialism is, while encouraging capitalist America to accept those fleeing the woes of Cuba, Venezuela, El Salvador, etc. Sort of like Obama calling for gun control while he's surrounded by Secret Service. Sort of like Congress imposing Obamacare on American citizens while they don't have to be enrolled themselves.

Sadly, I believe it's never pointed out to many people just what their hypocrisies are. They go through life enjoying the benefits of capitalism and the Constitutional freedoms we have here in America; all the while, they're burning the flag, wearing a Che Guevara shirt, reading Saul Alinsky, and donating $15 in spare change to Bernie Sanders. They pat themselves on the back for what caring people they are because they support giving more to the underprivileged. Tom Dunlap liked one of my earlier posts when I stated, "It would be interesting to see just how much the contributors to this and similar threads give to those in need." Crickets....

This liberal mindset gives people the warm feeling that they are doing their part, while all they are really doing is empowering the government to become bigger. And trust me, if you think charities waste based on how many pennies from each dollar get to those who are supposedly "helped"--they don't have anything on the government.

It's really a moment of clarity. Does your liberalism impact those around you? Or are you just accepting "feel-good" ideas because they make you feel better about all the guilt you carry for living in such a prosperous country? Driving a car instead of a bike? Eating 3 meals a day instead of 2 spoons of rice? Having a 70 degree thermostat instead of feeling the latest whim of nature?
 
We live in the world as it is. We have many choices made for us simply by where we are born and which family we are born into. Wanting things to be different than they are, for others to suffer less, for the environment to be better for those yet to come, is nothing to be ashamed of.

The system of governance and economics is very complex and to tout absolutes flippantly does a disservice to everyone.

Benefits of capitalism? Having heat in the house is a benefit of capitalism? More like a benefit of fire.

Massive environmental degradation is one result of capitalism. Capitalism that writes the laws that allow it to produce goods and not take responsibility for the wastes of said production.

New documentary on tv tonight. Called 'This Changes Everything'
More commie leftist liberal bullshit. But some may find it interesting.
 
BRT said:
Here's the difference between you and me Mac. We both claim to have strong beliefs. I strive every day to match my actions with my beliefs. Often I fall short, but when I'm confronted with a discrepancy--I do my best to put myself in check. You, like so many liberals, have been told what to think by the media, Hollywood, public education, etc. So you go around echoing those ideas. But, they mean little to you in the way you conduct your day-to-day life. Sort of the way Al Gore spouts off about climate change while he's zipping around in his jet. Sort of like the Pope talking about how great socialism is, while encouraging capitalist America to accept those fleeing the woes of Cuba, Venezuela, El Salvador, etc. Sort of like Obama calling for gun control while he's surrounded by Secret Service. Sort of like Congress imposing Obamacare on American citizens while they don't have to be enrolled themselves.

Sadly, I believe it's never pointed out to many people just what their hypocrisies are. They go through life enjoying the benefits of capitalism and the Constitutional freedoms we have here in America; all the while, they're burning the flag, wearing a Che Guevara shirt, reading Saul Alinsky, and donating $15 in spare change to Bernie Sanders. They pat themselves on the back for what caring people they are because they support giving more to the underprivileged. Tom Dunlap liked one of my earlier posts when I stated, "It would be interesting to see just how much the contributors to this and similar threads give to those in need." Crickets....

This liberal mindset gives people the warm feeling that they are doing their part, while all they are really doing is empowering the government to become bigger. And trust me, if you think charities waste based on how many pennies from each dollar get to those who are supposedly "helped"--they don't have anything on the government.

It's really a moment of clarity. Does your liberalism impact those around you? Or are you just accepting "feel-good" ideas because they make you feel better about all the guilt you carry for living in such a prosperous country? Driving a car instead of a bike? Eating 3 meals a day instead of 2 spoons of rice? Having a 70 degree thermostat instead of feeling the latest whim of nature?
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For the final time. You know little to nothing about me. We have never met. This is the internet. You are fooling yourself if you think this is some argument you are winning with all of these rhetoric filled novels you're posting, as well as videos. Get a better hobby. Nighty night
 
Oroboros said:
We live in the world as it is. We have many choices made for us simply by where we are born and which family we are born into. Wanting things to be different than they are, for others to suffer less, for the environment to be better for those yet to come, is nothing to be ashamed of.

The system of governance and economics is very complex and to tout absolutes flippantly does a disservice to everyone.

Benefits of capitalism? Having heat in the house is a benefit of capitalism? More like a benefit of fire.

Massive environmental degradation is one result of capitalism. Capitalism that writes the laws that allow it to produce goods and not take responsibility for the wastes of said production.

New documentary on tv tonight. Called 'This Changes Everything'
More commie leftist liberal bullshit. But some may find it interesting.
Click to expand...
I can't view this in NH yet but it looks interesting, and hopeful if we can change. http://thefilm.thischangeseverything.org/about/
 
macswan said:
For the final time. You know little to nothing about me. We have never met. This is the internet. You are fooling yourself if you think this is some argument you are winning with all of these rhetoric filled novels you're posting, as well as videos. Get a better hobby. Nighty night
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True, I know nothing about you; except what you've stated on this thread...and other threads here on TB. You act as if I'm telling lies about you. I'm sure you're a good person, you just have bad ideas--socialism. We can easily see they are bad ideas, because, as you've stated, you don't live by them.

Here's one of my hobbies. I finished this last week for a customer who bought a similar one almost a year ago.
 

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macswan said:
You are fooling yourself if you think this is some argument you are winning with all of these rhetoric filled novels you're posting, as well as videos. Get a better hobby.
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This smacks of "soft" censorship. Look Hoss, I gave up being influenced by peer pressure in middle school. You should try it--very liberating. It's come up several times over the course of this thread. You liberals wouldn't dream of trying to censor anyone would you?
 
Treetopflyer said:
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"What's been created by this half century of massive corporate propaganda is anti-politics. So, anything that goes wrong, you blame the government." Noam Chomsky

"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government." Thomas Jefferson

IE. The United States was founded on anti-politics. Not 1/2 century; 250 years, Noam.
 
Oroboros said:
We live in the world as it is. We have many choices made for us simply by where we are born and which family we are born into. Wanting things to be different than they are, for others to suffer less, for the environment to be better for those yet to come, is nothing to be ashamed of.
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You've hit at the very heart of it Oroboros. Do you think I don't want those things? Of course I do. But it's no good to wish and hope. We can't judge an economic/political model, or a person for that matter, based on their intentions. As my dad used to say, "That won't get the hay in."

Results. Capitalism, as Bono of U2 stated, "But commerce is real," he said. "That’s what you’re about here. It’s real. Aid is just a stop-gap. Commerce, entrepreneurial capitalism takes more people out of poverty than aid -- of course, we know that.” http://cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w-chapman/bono-capitalism-takes-more-people-out-poverty-aid

"Nearly 1 billion people have been taken out of extreme poverty in 20 years.The Millennium Development Goals (MDGs) may have helped marginally, by creating a yardstick for measuring progress, and by focusing minds on the evil of poverty. Most of the credit, however, must go to capitalism and free trade, for they enable economies to grow—and it was growth, principally, that has eased destitution."
http://www.economist.com/news/leade...out-extreme-poverty-20-years-world-should-aim

Where have we seen socialism achieve such results? Care to take a short trip around the globe with me? Let me ask you this: What made the United States the envy and benefactor of the globe? Capitalism, or Socialism? **My 8 year old knows the answer to this.
 
BRT said:
True, I know nothing about you; except what you've stated on this thread...and other threads here on TB. You act as if I'm telling lies about you. I'm sure you're a good person, you just have bad ideas--socialism. We can easily see they are bad ideas, because, as you've stated, you don't live by them.

Here's one of my hobbies. I finished this last week for a customer who bought a similar one almost a year ago.
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Nice looking chair. Certainly ain't Amish ,but ain't bad at all. :)
On another note you cherry pick and pronounce to denouce what you dislike. Providing your convictions which is fine. I feel like you get way hung up on words capitalism vs. socialism. But I you live in a country that is set up to be both in sense ,no.? How do you put one down and raise up the other trying to separate.When in fact they are both necessary in our society. Do you not agree that a balance of the two is what America was built on??
Another quick question. Will you collect social security when you are eligible? ;)
 
Just watched Trumbo, which portrays him as a liberal victim of McCarthyism. Reality is he was a vocal supporter of Stalin and Kim Il sung.
 
macswan said:
It will come down to Donald versus Bernie. Total shit show. Followed by all out war. Which ever side wins, the other side will go absolutely guano.

Trump wins and I move to Canada.
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Hey, you must have heard about Cape Breton inviting Americans to move there in the event of The Donald becomes Dictator, er, President--http://cbiftrumpwins.com/ Count me in!
 
BRT said:
So, about this elusive "happiness". Regarding the countries who "top" the US in "happiness"; maybe it would do them a bit of good to fear the society they've created. Need I remind you that it was this permissiveness which led to their being invaded and occupied. It was the "unhappy" old USA that crossed the pond, freed them from the Nazis, and financially rebuilt them. Where do you think they will be when it happens next time? Russia might be the next one on their doorstep. They've already taken over Crimea and the Ukraine is next : http://www.economist.com/news/brief...part-broader-and-more-dangerous-confrontation
occupymap.jpg

<SNIP>
/
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This map and the conclusions drawn about "happiness factor" in the current countries of Europe is a good example of manipulating a batch of facts to draw a false argument. Today's countries are nothing like the pre-WWII conditions. Many of these countries were very unstable and dominated by class societies up through WWI, and were really horribly damaged in the years between the war (years that included a worldwide Great Depression). There was no permissiveness or social democracies then--just a lot of bedraggled, inbred monarchies still nursing imperialist ambitions with colonies in Asia, Africa and the Caribbean.

Coming out of WWII, the US worked with a multi-nation team on how to rebuild occupied and war torn countries, and they actually remembered the history coming out of the First World War when Germany was crushed and destroyed by the victorious alliance. The severe economic conditions in Germany and the rise of a demagogue like Hitler who told the people it wasn't *their* fault, it was outsiders (rich Jewish bankers and merchants was his prime target). He built them up by saying he'd make Germany great again...sound familiar? So, realizing that a second profound humiliation in defeat could give rise to yet another fascist monster like Hitler, care was taken to ensure these countries (and Japan was included) were not plunged into economic decline.

The fly in the ointment was the deal with Stalin who carved a lot of the plunder and placed it under a Communist system (a distorted and perverted form of Socialism that really masked an alternate fascist regime, just like currently the Capitalist system in America has become a perversion of Adam Smith's vision since he did not believe that profit should be hoarded, but used to continually improve the human condition). The Soviet Bloc has crumbled and replaced by a pseudo-capitalist oligarchy that now borders on fascism under Putin.

Many war-torn countries took a hybrid capitalist market but with social democracy as a political guide, largely because they believed that it was the best security against having a tyrant come back into the picture. They have largely been right. Those that are becoming unbalanced toward Capitalism driving government are seeing major problems with internal violence and poverty -- the UK and America are the leaders in modern states that have a shrinking middle class and crime and poverty. Began with Reagan and Thatcher era, grew worse under Clinton (apart from a small period of irrational exuberance) when government regulation to keep excesses under close scrutiny and act when everyday people were at risk got kicked away, and then we got into the doctrine of perpetual war with W. and his cronies. What did that Communist, Dwight Eisenhower, say? Beware the military-industrial complex? Aw, shit!

I think Sanders has it right, the threat to our future is not from foreign powers as much as the fact that we are eating our own young with outsourcing jobs, stagnant wages, poisoned environment (I grew up in Flint MI--no one in the 1950s or 1960s would EVER dream of swimming in the Flint River, let alone drink out of it! I could smell it every summer's night, and it was vile.) He looks to get crony capitalism out of government as much as possible so that real democracy can come back to life, not the plutocracy we have now. Yep, we can afford $15 hour wages to start when CEOs stop getting millions and billions in their own pay packets while closing down plants, stifling innovation, and making people work for insufficient wages. The sad irony is, on the current trajectory, more and more people will not have enough to spend even at the Dollar Store or Walmart or Burger King, and these greedy bastards will bring the entire house of cards down on themselves--but it is a slow and agonizing death for the rest of us. Imagine having ordinary home owners earning enough to be able to hire really great, talented arborists like yourselves because they aren't living paycheck to paycheck and going into deep debt--they can spend the money you need to keep your business healthy. But it won't happen via "tinkle down economics" (and most of us are getting hosed!)

So, think it over and say to yourself, is the idea of putting us back to work and re-directing our tax dollars into investing in our infrastructure like schools, health, better water and sewers, etc. to alleviate all of our stress on how to pay for these things more likely to boost your bottom-line? Or is your business going to thrive more once something like same-sex marriage is abolished? Is giving tax breaks to Exxon and Halliburton going to help you, or is letting ordinary folks send their kids to college and vocational schools debt-free going to help you?

I think if we make a poor choice out of fear this year, we will turn the clock back to the years between World Wars.
 
Treetopflyer said:
Nice looking chair. Certainly ain't Amish ,but ain't bad at all. :)
On another note you cherry pick and pronounce to denouce what you dislike. Providing your convictions which is fine. I feel like you get way hung up on words capitalism vs. socialism. But I you live in a country that is set up to be both in sense ,no.? How do you put one down and raise up the other trying to separate.When in fact they are both necessary in our society. Do you not agree that a balance of the two is what America was built on??
Another quick question. Will you collect social security when you are eligible? ;)
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It is a continuum. That has come up once or twice already on this thread. We need to be moving back toward the capitalism end of that continuum. Currently, we are far too socialist. You could argue that there was some socialistic aspects to the groups that floated here 250 years ago; but that would be a very loose definition. In fact, the Plymouth Plantation tried the broader experiment with socialism only to find that the lack of incentive was not sustainable.

Will I collect social security? I'm 37, the way Washington is squandering that "lock box", I'm certain there won't be any of that money around when I'm eligible by age.
 
BRT said:
It is a continuum. That has come up once or twice already on this thread. We need to be moving back toward the capitalism end of that continuum. Currently, we are far too socialist. You could argue that there was some socialistic aspects to the groups that floated here 250 years ago; but that would be a very loose definition. In fact, the Plymouth Plantation tried the broader experiment with socialism only to find that the lack of incentive was not sustainable.

Will I collect social security? I'm 37, the way Washington is squandering that "lock box", I'm certain there won't be any of that money around when I'm eligible by age.
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Problem is capitalism becomes broken as well wouldn't you say..? If you capitalize it's not so much a problem like probably most anyone who reads this... I'm just not a fan of corruption.. Capitalism taxes the environment too much for my liking as well. I poccess more of a native American attitude, I guess you'd say without wasting words. Which I wish I didn't have to waste.It would've been much easier to scalp you and move on... I respect you ,but............capitalism
 
Treetopflyer said:
Problem is capitalism becomes broken as well wouldn't you say..? If you capitalize it's not so much a problem like probably most anyone who reads this... I'm just not a fan of corruption.. Capitalism taxes the environment too much for my liking as well. I poccess more of a native American attitude, I guess you'd say without wasting words. Which I wish I didn't have to waste.It would've been much easier to scalp you and move on... I respect you ,but............capitalism
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I'm not a fan of corruption either! That corruption overwhelmingly comes in the form of government. Take just the lottery--it's a tax on the poorest of the poor! It is a huge part of the current brand of socialism America has adopted in recent years.

http://metrocosm.com/state-lotteries-high-cost-low-return-and-absurdly-dishonest/
"The government should get out of the lottery-for-profit business. Their incentives are completely at odds with the government’s responsibility to protect the welfare of its citizens." The government has not previously, currently, nor will it in the future, care for those in need. They know these charts; they know the numbers. When a politician tells you he has the best interest of the "underprivileged" in mind--stay alert! He is about to take your tax money and squander it before it can ever end up in the hands of the poor. We have to elect someone who will at the very least maintain the current size of government--if not reduce it. Mark my words--as government grows, corruption grows. Just look around the world. Look at history.

 
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