F8 revolver

i guess it depends on the situation. if it is tied to the base of the tree, you ask the ground man to unclip it and you pull it up, recrotch and clip in. If you have it as a running bowline around a branch. untie, clip in etc.

No, You cant switch over anywhere in the tree at any time. I guess I meant you've already got your friction hitch tied, so to go to Ddrt, all you need is the tail.

i guess its not the tail you need but the point thats tied off, the working end.
 
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yes. when ascending I am only secured to climbing line via my hitch cord which is not a static line. My only static line is like a 9mm KM3 which is very hard to get a grip on. I can footlock single line pretty well but I like it to be a little fatter. I think it is safer to footlock single line than double line because double line has half the stretch of single line.

one minor problem I've had is that if you are decending and you are in mid air, and you change your mind and want to go up. (like you see a branch youve missed). It is difficult to reverse directions while in mid air.

As far as the advantages of SRT, you have to experience it. there is something liberating about having only one line to deal with. redirecting through branches is awesome, no twists, less tangles, consistant friction regardless of how much you wrap yourself around the tree through branches over bark and under everything.

the other thing that I have been doing is getting better tie in points by being able to back up higher crotches. I like that a lot!

this setup is convenient though too because if you want to go back to Ddrt, you just get the tail of your rope and clip in. boom.

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OK what I meant by static is not moving. Although it is not a static line it is used in a static configuration= SRT.

And when you remove the additional friction applied by your f8revolver you are only secrued to the "static" line via your hitch cord. Do you not see a safety problem with that?
That is no different than footlocking with a prussik or klemhesit on a static (non moving) line. What are 2 MAJOR rules when doing so? ALways keep your hands below the prussik! Why? So you dont release the hitch and begin descent. Another rule. Never descend on a prussik on a static line!
So how is being attached to a "static" non moving line via a vt any different? Think about that. And even if you say you dont descend without the f8revolver installed, Id find it hard to beleive that working srt you'd never have your hand above that hitch. Does that make any sense?

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no comments?


anyone?
 
The 'rule' about hands above hitches is in the ITCC.

If a person does anything to an SRT hitch it will react with twice the speed than in DdRT. Is that a reason to not use a hitch in this configuration? Not with proper training and skills.

Also, there have been many tests done on the slip/grab characteristics of various hitches. In all of the ones that I've read the prusik is the most likely to slip to failure. Using one of the spiraling friction hitches gives a hitch that will slip/grab a lot better than a prusik.

Is this foolproof? Certainly not. Tree work is a delicate balance of risk and safeguards, heavy on the safeguards.

The world of SRT tree climbing is just beginning to be explored. In this world the accepted practices are being formulated by the explorers using DdRT conventions as a model. Reckless exploring, in any realm, will lead to disaster of some degree. With careful planning the expeditions are more likely to yield rewards. Part of the planning is putting out these ideas in public for skeptics to analyze. And I'm not using 'skeptics' in a mean way. Being a Capricorn I understand duality and questioning.
 
In the picture attached to your second message, it looks like the figure-8 is side-loading a wire-gate carabiner. YIKE!
 
my biggest concern is that if I fall something is there to catch me.

I have total faith in bee line not breaking and if I tie my hitch right, i see no reason why it would not catch me and stop. The scenario of it sliding down the rope wildly out of control just doesnt seem that likely to me. I cant see it burning up and breaking.

I have climbed trees SRT with out the F8 revolver and decended as well as ascended. It is possible and didnt seem that dangerous either. the decents were a pain not because i would decend fast and wildly, but my friction hitch just would not want to move at all. It would just lock up. When i did get it to move, it would get so hot it would burn my hands. I never felt like I was going to rip down to the bottom of the rope out of control though, it just sucked. All choppy and unsmooth. so i added the F8 revolver and now the decents are quite pleasant.

yes when doing a long acent, i take the F8 revolver off and climb with my hand above the hitch. When my hitch is low at my harness, my hands are way above the hitch and therefore in no danger of triggering its release. when the hitch is extended, i follow the same rules as footlocking a double rope.

as for the F8 revolver being wire gated and side loaded, it is not my primary tie in point and merely takes away friction from my hitch, i think I would like to use a locking revolver but really have not been to concerned about it. Also, that picture was taken unloaded, when you load the revolver it straightens out. the nose of the revolver actually grabs more rope and helps add friction during the descent.

I like changing up my climbing style often or it gets boring. I guess try it out and see what you think. Of course there are disadvantages and advantages and whatever.
 
I think using a heat resistant cord is essential to this. That is where the real worry of decending on a single line with a friction hitch comes from I think. I know that if I were to decend on a tenex hitch SRT without the F8 revolver, there would be nothing left of it by the bottom. I have burnt several tenex hitches beyond recognition climbing on Ddrt with a pulley too. i would be interested to measure heat at the hitch and compare different climbing styles.
 
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The 'rule' about hands above hitches is in the ITCC.


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Although it is not ansi requirement it has been mentioned at any training Ive seen reguarding the prussik(footlock) in a static line setup.
 
So you are climbing the tree hand over hand. Like a pine tree or speed climb. your VT is riding at your saddle and tended with pulley and downward pressure (below hitch).

Is there a problem here? I can see that it would be much more crucial to have a hitch that catches in a scenario like that but I dont see how the risk factor is greater than footlocking with a kleimheist. You are not asking the hitch to do anything other than catch.

This is not to say that footlocking isnt a dangerous practice in itself. Lots of issues for a different thread maybe on that one. For now we are using it as a safety standard as it is commonly practiced by most of the people here at certain times. Also allowed in comps.



A downside that i see possibly is that I am exposing myself to something as dangerous as footlocking more frequently.

One climber told me that i needed to somehow back the hitch up with an acender of some type. To me, that would defeat the purpose of a low tech SRT work system. But, maybe its called for. I dont know.

Well whatever the case is, pruned a gnarly gnarly pin oak today with the F8 revolver, the F8 revolver was on at all times except the beginning and the end.

I threw my rope over a limb about 15-20 feet up, put a running bowline on it and cinched it to the limb then footlocked up. The rest of the ascent was standard lanyard and rope throwing. No need for a throwbag. probably would not have come down anyway.

At the top of the tree, I threw my eye over a skinny little crotch way up high and wove it back down through a few other crotches and tied it off at a big beefy limb. I then clipped on the F8 revolver and worked the tree. Had a blast winding my rope all around the tree like I just didn't care. At the end of the climb, I Returned to the top, popped off the F8 revolver, untied the eye from the limb, thread it through a lower crotch and decended Ddrt catching all the straglers that I missed the first time around.
 
I still think you are flirting with disaster if descending without a descender employed. Your f8revolver is a descender, and so long as you use it anytime you descend you should be safe. I still disagree though. Descending any static leg or legs of line with a hitch only is potentially dangerous, even though you FEEL it is safe. I dont agree with the arguement that high temp cordage such as beeline or similiar will make any difference. I also dont agree that a vt vs. a prussik or klemheist will make any difference. If either were the case, would FLing with a beeline prussik be safe to descend on? Would FLing with a vt be safer than a prussik hitch? If so why is noone doing it? Because it doesnt make a difference what the cordage is made of or how its fashioned and tied, descending a static leg(s) of line without a descender is suicide.

Tom brings up the point of hands above the prussik is a TCC rule. So Tom, would you advocate that outside of competition, it is acceptable to put your hands above a prussik or attempt to descend on it without a descender? Im sure you wouldnt, so that point is moot.

Treebing mentioned how in his trials ascending and descending on the hitch only. That the hitch would either bind tightly or was very choppy and hard to break loose for the descent. Exactly like a prussik would react in a traditional FLing scenerio. He also mentions that he sees no reason why the hitch wouldnt catch. Im sure the first person to ride a prussik into the dirt thought the same thing.

To me this isnt an SRT arguement. Im pro SRT all the way, even though I choose to work Ddrt. SRT is great and its cool that people have found ways to employ it while working vs. just ascending.

To me the point is very simple. NEVER descend a static leg(s) of line without a descender. A hitch no matter how it is tied or tied with is not a descender, it is an ascender.
This is true even climbing Ddrt. Ddrt your hitch doesnt descend your line. The hitch ascends the running end of line, when you pull down on the running end. When YOU need to descend from your position climbing Ddrt, you release or open the hitch allowing the running end to pass through the hitch which in turn makes YOU descend on the working end of the line. But at no point does the hitch actually descend the line. Does that make sense or am i talking in circles?
 
Its interesting to me that I would not consider decending on a footlock prussic but i would with a hitch at my saddle. There is a difference.

I climb often with a bridge Ddrt. Puting the witch above my pulling hands. I actually use the same cord for the F8 revolver. I find decending when the hitch is way out in front of me to be scary. Anyone else find this? There is something that makes you grab and not let go when your arms are up like that. Maybe thats just me.
 
Your missing my point and once again have sidetracked into another unrelated scenario. Ive just looked in my copy of "On Rope" do you have a copy? Page 97 is the rappelling (descending) chapter. All rappleling mentioned is done on a single static leg of line (SRT).
I find it interesting that nowhere in the chapter (or entire book for that matter) is the use of ANY type of hitch advocated as safe to descend on. Several hardware devices are mentioned for descent but no hitches. Hitches are discussed within the book as being for ascending only.

You say there is a difference between descending on a traditional prussik above you, and descending on a hitch at your saddle? Please enlighten me as to what those differences are.
 
treebing,

The Petzl i'D is designed for work positioning on a single rope. Ask Santa for one, you won't be disappointed.

While I admire your inventive/creative spirit, I believe your system is inefficient and lacking in terms of "safety". I have been stuck in outerspace with a clamped-down prusik on a single line. I agree with Tom, that SRT is really no different than DdRT concerning "backups". We don't backup our hitch in a traditional climbing system. However, the problem lies in the efficacy of a hitch as an SRT tool. Hitches are proven in DdRT... let cams and grabs handle SRT.
 
When I get to talking about SRT I forget some of the things that I do as a matter of routine. They have become so normal that my mind doesn't bring them up.

The biggest safety addition that can be added are stopper knots on the down rope. Tie slip knot every few feet with the release leg going to the ground. Whenever I'm working on a new technique I do this. Also, when I take new climbers up they tie stoppers. Rock climbers have 'tied off short' for a long time, we should consider it too.

I understand your concern John. After spending most of a year working out the bugs of a friction hitch I never had one release and drop me when I wasn't expecting it. Using some of the stiffer hitch cords that were available at the time did NOT work. The stiffness acted against me. The springiness opened them.

Experimenting is not for everyone.

My blood brother Jim has spent many hours on KMIII/Tachyon, Blake's, using HRC and has not had a slip. If I weren't comfortable with what he was using you can bet that he wouldn't use the technique. There's no way I would ever want any of my other brothers/sisters exposing themselves to the risk either.

The knowledge of rope on rope friction is understood better by arborists than any other rope access discipline.
 
I fully realize that decending on a friction hitch is not good. Thats why I came up with this rig. I am sure the petzl i'd is a good tool. However, my point in experimenting and coming up with this thing though is to climb SRT without fancy mechanical jigs that exceed $150. I dont even own an ascender. I probably should buy one of those before I buy an I'd.

I do not see how it is lacking in safety. I came up with it to make decending SRT on a prussic safe which I am convinced it does. Otherwise I would not post it here.
I am also very pleasantly suprised with the eficiency of this simple getup. while maybe not I'd standards, it is simple, functional and fun which is the main thing to me. I would say that my mobility in the tree is as good as any Ddrt climbing system that I have worked off of.

I would welcome any gifts of Petxl I'ds though

my address is 33 parkhurst, detroit, Mi. 48203.

I was thinking about it. I am convinced that there is a difference between trying to decend on a footlock prussic and decending on a Vt at your harness. I wouldnt even think to try one while I have done the other numerous times without feeling even remotely close to death (although not pleasant).

when the prussic is at your harness, you end up lowering a lot of your weight with your arms and easing the friction off the prussic using your hands. This is not possible when trying to decend with the footlock prussic way above your head. See, one can lower themselves out of a tree with no prussic at all, just hand over hand themselves down the rope. not Ansi standards but not particularly hard either.

When the prussic is above your head, you do not have any control of the rope above your prussic and it seems easy to me to latch on to the prussic in panic and hit the dirt. Not likely when the prussic is at your harness.

But all that really has nothing to do with the F8 revolver as it's sole purpose in life is to avoid this entire conversation. It works. another tool for the tool bag. Feel free to try it or not try it, im just throwing it out there. I really do appreciate all of the feedback though thats why Im hooked on the buzz. I wonder if I would be playing around with gadgets like this if I didnt have some people to come home to and say "hey, check this out!"
 
I already gave you kudos for the f8 thingy. I only started in because you mentioned having removed it several times.

Anyway, you have your opinion, and I can respect that. I only hope to not be reading about you someday in the awakenings forum.
 
back to the pine tree scenario. Is that an unacceptable risk to you? to climb a tree hand over hand with a vt at your harness and nothing else?

the decending on a hitch discussion is mute as I think we both agree that it sucks. im not going to do it, your not going to do it. Ive done it, didn't die but dont plan on doing it.

the ascending question is more where I am curious as to what you think.

to you, and others, is climbing a tree while tied into a static line with just a VT putting yourself at an unacceptable risk?
 
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is climbing a tree while tied into a static line with just a VT putting yourself at an unacceptable risk?


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I think that is acceptable; for ascending only. I would prefer to use a Croll, myself. Smoother, but would not hesitate to do it with a prusik (with a few extra wraps of course!).
 
As far as the advantages of SRT, you have to experience it. there is something liberating about having only one line to deal with. redirecting through branches is awesome, no twists, less tangles, consistant friction regardless of how much you wrap yourself around the tree through branches over bark and under everything.

the other thing that I have been doing is getting better tie in points by being able to back up higher crotches. I like that a lot!

I WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE!
 
I'm one of the ones having a hard time picturing this at work. I understand the descent, how it takes away some friction from the hitch. Really brilliant like that idea. But how is it easily moved up?

Is there anyway that someone could do a vid on this, very interesting looks good but still an example to fully understand it.
 
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