DRT

Fair enough, but you wouldn't be using a hitch on its own on a single static line for tree work....it wouldn't function and is why nobody ever does.
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This is done quite often in arborculture. A kleimheist on a static line for foot locking access is an example. As is a secret weapon system attached to a static line. Solo hitches are trusted on static lines all the time.
 
Haha, the trailblazer of SRT (or how would you call it now to define it Kevin, as you use SRT for Ddrt? sSRT?) preaches DRT now, very interesting!
I am really looking forward to where this one goes...
Great discussion btw., thanks to all!
 
I do rope access work as well but its really the minor part of my work.
I tried DRT as well in the tree, and there are situations where its possible indeed but I didnt find it to practical. Maybe Kevin gets along with it so well because he is so used to sSRT (which I am not) that the transition is just so much easier and more natural. Just a thought...
 
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This is done quite often in arborculture. A kleimheist on a static line for foot locking access is an example. As is a secret weapon system attached to a static line. Solo hitches are trusted on static lines all the time.

Would that be a doubled static line though ? And used as purely as a means to secure the climber to the doubled line as he ascends footlock style. Doubt very much that anyone would choose that configuration for descending and working their way around a tree.
 
A kleimheist works fine on one leg of a static line. it's a bit harder to foot lock and also harder to switch over to a dSRT system if you use one leg of rope vs two. Using a secret weapon and a static SRT ascent system is quite common and that depends on the climber trusting his hitch on a single static line.

Regardless of moving around on it, the hitch is there to keep the climber from hitting the deck. This it does impeccably. Wether or not the climber is able to work or not is just a matter of practicality. It's not practical without a wrench but it is life supporting.
 
It's a good method. DRT is not as bad as you might imagine though. More to come.

Thats not really news to me Kevin, it has its place for sure, as an option. As a matter a fact I was DRT yesterday transferring and working the tops of 4 very tall firs. Beautiful weather and spectacular scenery looking across to saltspring island. Its the closest I get to rec climbing, in that I almost enjoyed being up there. I would've gotten a photo, but was concentrating hard on not getting confused with all my ropes :)
 
Haha, the trailblazer of SRT (or how would you call it now to define it Kevin, as you use SRT for Ddrt? sSRT?) preaches DRT now, very interesting!
I am really looking forward to where this one goes...
Great discussion btw., thanks to all!
Over the course of this thread I have sort of settled on dynamic SRT (dSRT),
Static SRT (sSRT) and DRT for double rope climbing. I suppose it could be static and dynamic DRT as well. Or a hybrid sdDRT that would be one line static the other dynamic.

I think counting the number of ropes one is independently connected to is the simplest way to determine wether the system is SRT or DRT. I suppose you could have ORT and TRT for one rope climbing and two rope climbing. That way doubled rope climbing would not be confused as double.
 
A kleimheist works fine on one leg of a static line. it's a bit harder to foot lock and also harder to switch over to a dSRT system if you use one leg of rope vs two. Using a secret weapon and a static SRT ascent system is quite common and that depends on the climber trusting his hitch on a single static line.

Regardless of moving around on it, the hitch is there to keep the climber from hitting the deck. This it does impeccably. Wether or not the climber is able to work or not is just a matter of practicality. It's not practical without a wrench but it is life supporting.

Its not me you have to convince Kevin, what I think doesn't really matter. Its just that I have my own mind and opinions, and I trust them to keep me alive. In the aftermath of an accident though, where expert witnesses might be called upon, anybodies guess how it'll unfold.
 
Look at the statistics on why it takes the first responders an average of 2.5 hours to rescue a climber in a tree.

Could you please direct me to where you found this figure? I've been looking for figures like these. I'm also curious how long, on average, it takes responders to reach the scene of a tree climbing rescue scenario. Thanks!
 
Just got a chance to read all of this ( sorry Kev for the tardiness). Glenn over at Axcess Rescue is a great guy to go to for training. As for my thoughts on two static lines in a tree for work.... I have been at it for a while now ( unless playing around). It had taken me a little to get the hang of it but I feel way better with it. I have personally taken a fall due to my own complacency. I know that if I would have just had that second line I would have never slammed the deck ( and I was in a position away from the tree and on my way down). Do I think that SPRAT or IRATA or any other rope access lead will come in and tell tree guys what to do... no. Nor do I think that they care to. The cell tower guys are having a huge number of deaths as of late do to the mind set that they just don't need to follow rules if they choose not to. Same thing can happen in any industry. Just happens that Rope Access it is pounded into our heads and even more so into the Level 3 that it will not be tolerated and your firing will be swift. This has to be done for them due to the types of contracts they deal with. If you have ever done tree work in a oil refinery, or Nuclear Plant I am sure you have seen the safety regs and rules that WILL be followed in order to work there.

I don't think it is a difficult job to have two independent lines in a tree while working, I can see a Pin Oak being a major pain and a need to say maybe one line is safer. the two anchors NEEDING to be a known rating is unfounded Tom. It is a practice to try and find anchors that look as though they can hold 5000 lbs. I promise you though everything in rope access we connect to doesnt always have a tested rating tag attached to it. So we use our brain and come up with a safe rigging plan for our anchors. No different then tree work.

This will always be a discussion as to what is best practice. IMO all climbing crafts when studied and practice will allow a climber to be at their top performance. Be a student of climbing all around and dont close your mind to one or another, you never know the other way may save your life one day.
 
I have to say, I think the dSRT,sSRT, DRT, distinction is the clearest one I've encountered. I have really enjoyed watching this conversation. I hope I didn't come off as combative earlier reg, it was not my intention. Merely trying to assess where you were coming from
 
How about MRT for Multiple Rope Technique?

I also like the 'dynamic SRT' and 'static SRT' for clarifying the one-line distinction.
(I know Reg, you are going to love me for this). So I thought MRT would be clearer as you could have 3 ropes at some point. I don't really think 3 ropes is enough of a factor to warrant the 'M' in MRT, but thought it could help distinguish between it and doubled rope technique.

Whether, we use two lines or one, we still need to be able to discuss systems without the confusion.
 
Maybe its just me but when did it stop being tree climbing. It seems to kind of be morphing into high angle rope work. Dont get me wrong, I love all the new gear/toys. But you still have to be able to climb without them. What happened to working with what the tree gives you? Your body positioning, balence, and for lack of a better word(feel), all suffer when you spend most of your time climbing up ropes. Im not trying to dog anybody or say they cant climb. For me I think you should learn how to rope adavance into a large tree and work it with just one rope and a lanyard. Im not saying that how it should always be done. There are much faster ways to go. But if you learn these skills in the begining your body position, balence, and feel will be much better than someone who learned to ascend a rope into the tree and use lots of re-directs etc. I have seen plenty of guys who are badass with a throw ball, can srt super fast into the tree, and then spend for ever trying to move through the tree casue they are not really comfortable TREE climbing. Just my experience, not directed at anybody.

(Just to be clear when I am using "you" in this post I am addressing the reader, not anyone in particular)

Sherwood's post was great a while back!
It’s Climbing Arborist, not Swinging Arborist.
Tree climbing is what we do and the rope is there to keep us off the ground (until we have completed what we went up for). Haven't you ever found yourself relying on your rope too much. Maybe trying to inch your hitch up little by little rather than simply walking up the branches? Or being held back by a lanyard when climbing up around big limbs?
I found that I stopped climbing the tree when I attached a rope to myself and tried to climb the rope rather. HOWEVER, the rope is a great and necessary tool for safely accessing the tree and work positions you would not be able to achieve without it. Climbing is your first means of attachment, the rope is a tool to help you get around safely and efficiently. Use the tools to help you climb, not the other way around. If you find yourself climbing to use the tools, than your climbing suffers. I know using the gear is what's fun, and maybe that is what recreational climbing is for.

Multiple lines can be beneficial I’m sure, and do offer a more secure work environment, I wouldn’t necessarily go as far to say ‘safer’.

Secure vs. Safer: With multiple lines you are more secure, as you are tied in multiple times. But that creates more lines to manage and look out for. Pruning is a separate matter, but with removals having more than one line to look out for when rigging sections of the tree can be costly. There is much more of a chance to catch your line with a top or large limb etc, and yank you around. You might not hit the ground, but you sure could get yourself into a mess. Now I know you would take all the necessary precautions to keep this from happening, but when you are obligated to have two ropes in the tree for your required redundant TIP you have no choice but to have more lines zagging across the tree. Safety is important, but at what point do you cross the line? Or should I say lines?

Be safe, and live to write another post on the Buzz.
 
So in rope access. Three points of noddy attachment such as two feet and a knee, or two hands and a foot, count as a solid anchor point. Climbing the tree can often be done with three points of attachment at all times and for this you only need one line. Like if you sitting at the edge of a cliff securely and you tie in once
 
I have to say, I think the dSRT,sSRT, DRT, distinction is the clearest one I've encountered. I have really enjoyed watching this conversation. I hope I didn't come off as combative earlier reg, it was not my intention. Merely trying to assess where you were coming from

No worries at all mate. No point beating around the bush.

I dont care so much about much about the terms DdRT, SRt, dSRT etc so long as people understand and acknowledge the compatibility with the various climbing hardware thats out there.

Since the original topic was DRT (two ropes), I watched various roperunner videos this morning.....and without having seen or used one in the flesh, I would hope DRT is a condition of use with this particular device. If I were the manufacturer, that's what I'd do....at least to start with. Be it a super lightweight dynamic line and hitch as the second tie, as a minimum....something of which would offer little impediment to the climbers primary system, if only to tick the box. If climbers choose to ignore the condition, then its their liability.
 
I've been thinking on this for a while now and I can see one huge benefit to climbing sDRT, but it would actually sDdSRT... I think. In fact, I think I'm going to start using it if I can figure out the multiscender arrangement. If the line is doubled over a natural union and you have a RR on each side, you could work into another tree with all the benefits of sSRT, but you would be able to retrieve the line since you're carrying both sides. It would negate the idea of having a backup line, since if one side was cut, you go down, but it still has merit. Essentially, you could indefinitely extend a traditional SRT climb.
 
Why do you feel the runner should say that but not the spider jack reg? I actually agree with you from a manufactures perspective. Trying to understand why art chooses to promote their device for SRT and it has been known to snag on things and fail.
 
I have also heard stories about pieces of bark getting wedged in the zig zag and disabling the spring in the zig zag causing it not to engage. I wonder how Petzl can feel comfortable with it SRT. Just wondering where they are coming from as manufactures. I would like to follow their lead but it makes me nervous. Like even the hitch climber system there has been cases of the splice catching the top of hitches and folks going for rides. You get enough of them out there and someone will commit a brain fart.

I have no problem with saying it though because its clear to me after climbing with several of the most common backup devices that they are all worthless as backup devices next to the rope runner.
 
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Why do you feel the runner should say that but not the spider jack reg? I actually agree with you from a manufactures perspective. Trying to understand why art chooses to promote their device for SRT and it has been known to snag on things and fail.

For starters, I know you and think you're alright....so I wouldn't like to see you left in a vulnerable position at the result of someone elses complacency. You've given your first batch of devices out with the protection of a waiver, as well as that to people who you know and trust to an extent. When it hits mainstream, its gonna be used and abused by a wide range of skill sets and levels of intelligence.

What petzl or ART do and say is their business....I say set your own standards of safety.

If you take ART as an example though, they promote the spiderjack as a Doubled/dynamic line appllication:


So even though its purely a mechanical device like your RR, it is taking just halve the weight on the climber....unlike the RR which takes the full weight. Its also a super tight unit-the distance the rope enters and exits, with two workable options to bring the climber to a hault....be that only half the friction is needed at the 2:1 ratio of DdRT than what would be the 1:1 of RR- SRT. (apologies that you disapprove of the terms DdRT and SRT, but so long as the distinction is clear for the sake of the discussion). Furthermore in the unlikely event of both SJ cams jamming open and the line running freely through the device, the climber would have better chance of saving himself from falling by grabbing (or attempting to) the running part of the line....as he still is in 2:1 mode. Unlike the 1:1 status of the RR in typical setup where he'd have to stop his full weight + fall factors. With all that and the fact that the ART devices have been around for many years now I can see why they dont make DRT a condition.

Re: the RR, I watched videos of Casey and Richard, and there was a few things there, along with what I just wrote already that made me think you should cover your back for sure.
 
The distinction between dSRT and sSRT is very much relative. So a device that is designed to withstand a 5000 lbs pull test has to carry 200 lbs in one scenario and 100 in another scenario doesn't really mean much to me.

Likewise the fact that a failure of a device on sSRT has 20 feet of rope go through it during a 20 foot fall but 40 feet of rope with a dSRT is inconsequential as the result is the same. More line ripping through your hands during a fall is no backup, and can not be counted on to do anything for you. Maybe it would but I wouldn't put any money on it. The difficulty of failing a sSRT system vs. a dSRT system is all subjective and impossible to define in any substantial terms in my opinion and not worth dwelling over really. You either run with a backup line or you don't. But You are absolutely right, ART and Petzl are free to make their own decisions. It seems a bit bold to me but props to them.
 

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