DRT

From RE's Unicender instructions, Page 2:

DESCRIPTION
The UNICENDER
is a versatile rope climbing tool thatfeatures:
•
Ascending and descending with both doubled rope technique (DdRT) and single rope technique (SRT)

And, what does this really mean?

"You must always have a backup- never trust your life to a single tool."

Would my knowledge and many hours of use of the Uni be considered a backup? I have lots of 'tools' that I trust my life to---rope, saddle, biner, etc.

Vague instructions.

Yes, DdRT is a variation of SRT. But in arbo-vocabulary let's agree that they are variations in style.
 
treebing said:
I don't see how ddrt can be called anything but SRT. Does folding a rope in half make it two ropes?
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Doubled means doubled. Both parts sharing the load, not double as in two lines. Whether you agree with the descriptive term or not the distinction is pretty obvious.
 
The wrench is clearly advertised in the wespur catalog (as just one example) for SRT use. The zigzag and Spiderjack are sold as doubled line devices. I dont see where the confusion is.
 
John_KAYS said:
Yeah, what's it called when you are using two ropes - one DdRT and one SRT?

use I understand that two doubled lines would be DDdRT - Double Doubled Rope Technique.
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I think the point is that its quite clear that the zigzag and spiderjack are to be used doubled line, 2:1 single line configuration, load share or whatever you want to call it. Its in the manual, on the net and in the cataloges. No confusion. Unlike the wrench, which in most peoples mind at least is used on a fixed, static, none moving line, whereby a single leg of line takes the full weight of the climber. Thats the point Jimmy was making I believe.
 
I just thought Kevin said it was ok to use both SRT and I was sure both did not approve SRT use. I wouldn't use either with a wrench(and Ive owned both) but i do use a wrench with my hitch climber set up some.. As far as using two ropes all the time for tree work, I think using a lanyard when doing any cutting,chainsaw , handsaw even a pole saw could serve to be a good idea as a 2nd attachment point. But other wise I just don't see Drt being very practical, efficient or profitable-but could be possibly safer.
 
I am open minded but have to agree, one rope and a lanyard still seems the way....but I like this thread.....actually liking the new buzz...drawing me away from FB....all good at the buzz....
 
I think distinguishing ddrt from SRT for all practical safety conversations is silly. I don't see the difference. I have not heard of anyone using the zig zag or ART products DRT and I don't believe it is recommended even in the instructions. Which is interesting to me from a liability standpoint.

cause your using a single rope or your using a single rope. What difference does it make how you fold it? You cut it, you unclip from it, you disable it in anyway, the result is the same.

That's why the whole TCC debacle has always made me so mad. I just don't see the difference. One rope is one rope. Period end of story.

Tom, the unicender can itself descend and ascend up an down a single rope. But it must be used with a backup device.
 
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Reg said:
I think the point is that its quite clear that the zigzag and spiderjack are to be used doubled line, 2:1 single line configuration, load share or whatever you want to call it. Its in the manual, on the net and in the cataloges. No confusion. Unlike the wrench, which in most peoples mind at least is used on a fixed, static, none moving line, whereby a single leg of line takes the full weight of the climber. Thats the point Jimmy was making I believe.
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Reg, I wasn't sure if you responding to my 'confusion' or others speaking about the applicable use of these varies mechanical tools and the like. I am with you on this. I understand that the Zigzag and spiderjack are strictly for doubled application, and that the purpose of the rope wrench is to give you that doubled effect when using one line. No confusion there on my part if that is what you were wondering.

I was really just muddying the water - i.e. not really contributing. My point was that if we can't talk about these various systems without getting confused ourselves about what system involves what elements, I think there might be a need for a remodeling of these descriptive words.

Totally agree with you, Reg, that there is no justification for the confusion of the application of the various tools used in these systems. It is clearly stated. Thanks for making that point.

Now, the distinction is important in a safety conversation between SRT and DdRT, because the way they are set up. To name one: A climber using one Doubled rope, let alone two doubled ropes, has a much harder time being rescued if needed. Whereas the SRT with a basal tie lends itself to a more likely quick successful rescue... and yet another difference is that the load you put on a limb with an SRT basal tie changes with your angles and is, for the most part, a heavier load on the crotch.

Treebing, you are right about DdRT being a single rope I just would not call it SRT.

And thanks for this discussion. Thanks for taking the time to explain your process. You have a good point about two lines benefiting your work positioning, but I am still not sure the benefit outweighs the initial added time and overall clutter of lines...especially on trees with lots of rigging lines as well.

And with doubling up everything your harness is always going to be the weak link. I guess if you had two bridges and redundancy throughout the webbing on your harness. It just seems, to quote the guy from the chainsaw in the neck video: With all the training and gear... "You can never be too safe"
 
I believe the only reason that the zig zag and ART products don't recomend use in a static SRT system is simply they don't function in that environment. They are restricted by their design to a dynamic SRT system. (Or dynamic DRT if you really wanted to get tangled up). Both tools work Fine if you add that 180 bend in your static SRT line with a rope wrench. Neither company will recomend products built by a competitor so they won't tell anyone to buy a wrench.

ART and zig zag are the odd tools out there that are designed for WORKERs climbing SRT.

SRT is normally seen in the recreational world of caving where employees are not asked to perform dangerous tasks at height and people volontarily put themselves at risk for fun.
SPRAT and IRATA clearly put ddrtSRT in the same category as SRT. They don't bother counting bends. Your either attaching your life to one rope or your attaching your life to two.
 
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I don't know how many times I have heard that climbers don't want to switch from dSRT to static SRT because they like the comfort of two lines in front of them. The switch is discomforting to them. I get it, but at the same time I am like "are you serious?"

Another thing that is funny if you do all the math of how much rope you have to manage: ddrtSRT and true DRT, its exactly the same. Yet you have the added danger of a SRT system.
 
Well, yes...that doesn't make sense, but actually does to a degree. My worry with SRT with a basal anchor is that your down line is sometimes out of sight/out of mind and adds a chance of cutting it inadvertently. Whereas doubled rope comes back to you and keeps everything in sight.
 
That would be a difference of anchor point selection not climbing system. You could run a dynamic system off a base anchor if you wished. It would be difficult to manage the friction at the primary canopy redirect
 
I see what you mean. Yeah, but I guess the SRT lends itself to a base tie more than the DdRT does. (As the SRT is un-retrievable if tied to the crotch) I was just trying to rationalize what those climbers were thinking regarding the comfort of DdRT. I'm not saying it's the answer, just a possible reason for their distrust of the single (un-bent) line.
 
I think it is a huge waste of time to be discussing the merits of one SRT system vs another. It is a subject that has beaten into the ground way too long. It's either DRT or SRT. When at work its DRT, when at play its SRT.
 
I'm sorry I was responding to your post about the guys feeling more comfortable with the doubled line in front of them. I wasn't going into which one is better, just replying to your statement and then clarifying. If you re-read my posts you will see I wasn't trying to waste your time. I'm really enjoying hearing your point of view based on your experience and training. Please update us as you continue with this method and work out the finer details with time and trial. I would really like to hear how it goes. Thanks.
 
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