DRT

macswan said:
If someone can climb with two ropes and be productive, what the hell does it matter if it is different than the last five thousand trees they climbed. How is it dumbing down the "art of climbing" to experiment with a new technique? Reg, are you simply worried about the idea of it becoming mandatory to climb DRT? Who cares if Bing uses two ropes, as long as he keeps making ground breaking gizmos while he does so.
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Im just telling him what I think macswan, being honest you know. You start a thread you would hope to get some honest opinions, even if they're not agreeable. People should say what they feel.

Im not that worried about it becoming mandatory, because I just wouldnt do it. Like Dave just said, the option has always been there regardless. I think the treeclimbing industry regulates itself pretty good as is. To encourage or allow a none tree related industries a foot in the door and start having influence or imposing their own lawful standards and requirements makes no sense to me. Hanging off buildings and bridges etc is not comparable to navigating ones self throughout the crown of a tree. ...let alone, undertaking any kind of work, or the cutting tools involved. Treework is such an ever-changing and dynamic environment....and one of which you never stop learning, because every single tree and situation is different....and to a degree, un-quantifiable. I would never allow an individual, or group of people outside of treework dictate how I should go about my job. I was just surprised to read that an experienced climber of over a decade could be influenced in a fearful way in just a week. Experimenting is fine, but I would say stop worrying. If its not broken, dont fix it.

When I said dumbing down, I mean you start relying the whole time on two ropes keeping you balanced, your natural balance is gonna suffer....or not develop at all as a learner. Is that progress ? I couldn't imagine trying to explain to a customer why I have two ropes holding me up in a tree, and passing on the extra cost of the extra time the whole thing is taking.

I would avoid using two lines unless I didn't trust the tree, or I didn't trust my gear. If I didn't trust my self I shouldn't be doing treework. Do you trust yourself Kevin, and your equipment ?
 
Almost no one I know climbing today complies with the two tie in point while working mandate 100% . cheating is rampant. I don't think that people's climbing would change that much if "rules" were changed. Cheating would still be normal and expected in everyday life.
 
Steve castrogiovani, fell at a climbing comp work day as he performed an SRT changeover. He can tell you about and how many thousands of trees he climbed before he fell.

Cameron Lyon, forgot his one point of attachment and fell to his death on a crane job.

Matt Starks, cut his line holding his false crotch up in the air. One line back there. (He just won the Charlotte prelims last weekend)

A climber in Europe recently broke his legs when he had compatibility issues with his spider jack


four accidents recently that have shaken my confidence. All skilled climbers

How many times have many times over the years have I found myself up in the air untied. More than I can count. That's a DQ at a climbing comp, but so is dropping a glove.


Where and why are the bodies piling up and why. It's not broken ropes or failing gear and a 5000 lbs break test. It is absentmindedness doing a repetitive job.
 
Absent mindedness is a quality I have never been accused of lacking by the way. The vast majority of climbers get paid by the hour. I don't know why they would fight this.
 
With all due respect to those hurt or killed due to absent mindedness at work....why should the thousands of others who haven't, climbers of 2, 3 sometimes 4 decades of tree work be penalized for absentmindedness on the part of a handful of others ?
 
I am by no means suggestion you or anyone else climb like this if they don't want to. Day three of DRT for me has been completed and I have been pretty much enjoying it. Not using a lanyard is a real time saver. Since both of my devices self tend I don't really need to spend time tending them. Passing through a redirect is now: unclip, clip, unclip, clip. As opposed to unclip, clip, unclip, clip, unclip, clip. Time is dropped by a third. Having two lines in front of me is strange but I did that for years with ddrt SRT. Two lines below me is a pain compared to static SRT but better still than a dynamic tail that is too long and tangles in the brush. Lots more options as far as positioning goes.
 
treebing said:
I am by no means suggestion you or anyone else climb like this if they don't want to. Day three of DRT for me has been completed and I have been pretty much enjoying it. Not using a lanyard is a real time saver. Since both of my devices self tend I don't really need to spend time tending them. Passing through a redirect is now: unclip, clip, unclip, clip. As opposed to unclip, clip, unclip, clip, unclip, clip. Time is dropped by a third. Having two lines in front of me is strange but I did that for years with ddrt SRT. Two lines below me is a pain compared to static SRT but better still than a dynamic tail that is too long and tangles in the brush. Lots more options as far as positioning goes.
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Is your roperunner going to come with the condition that it only be used DRT ?
 
The unicender does that. Nobody uses it that way. I might have to for liabilities sake. I might say something like Petzl. "Must be used with a back up unless that causes an additional hazard". That gives people some wiggle room. I'm sort of amazed that SRT has been the only way for so many many years in a work environment. But even the rope access guys a lot of them cheat all of the time as well I get the feeling. Lots of deaths in the tower world right now. DRT has really always been best practice for working. We go a clause in the tree world that when our tools are not out we are climbing for fun. So we constantly go back and forth from playing to working to playing. That can get confusing. Best practice is obviously DRT for working and work positioning.
 
treebing said:
The unicender does that. Nobody uses it that way. I might have to for liabilities sake. I might say something like Petzl. "Must be used with a back up unless that causes an additional hazard". That gives people some wiggle room. I'm sort of amazed that SRT has been the only way for so many many years in a work environment. But even the rope access guys a lot of them cheat all of the time as well I get the feeling. Lots of deaths in the tower world right now. DRT has really always been best practice for working. We go a clause in the tree world that when our tools are not out we are climbing for fun. So we constantly go back and forth from playing to working to playing. That can get confusing. Best practice is obviously DRT for working and work positioning.
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But the wrench doesn't ? What's the difference ?

I wouldn't blame you by the way, with the RR.

Can't comment on the playing part as its strictly a job for me.
 
I'm confused - using a second line as your second tip doesn't sound as safe as using a lanyard. Why? Because the lines both come off your bridge and are still pretty much one rope as they head off up into the tree (as they are so close together). If your saw were to hit one chances are it could very well hit the other. Whereas, the lanyard is usually down laterally from your climbing line - different planes shall we say. To hit them both would take some doing and you'd probably have other problems to deal with.

I hadn't been paying close attention to this thread, so I don't know if what I said means anything to you...but it was just my thought.

Two lines definitely have their place in an arborist's box of tools, but to use it on every tree for every circumstance - I wouldn't sign onto just yet. But that's me. You have the right to do what you feel works best for you, and what keeps you alive and well.
 
If it becomes regulation, folks still have to get caught when not abiding by it. Making DRT a requirement would most likely equate to moving a mountain. Just imagine how many people are out there doing tree work without PPE, or even the knowledge of the safest practices. David has made a great point in that we already have the option if we want it. I'm not sure how much additional safety DRT would create if one were using each line in SRWP configuration, but I do wonder if you could do so without a RW or RR, since each hitch would support 1/2 your weight if you could manage them that way. Grabbing 2 lines may be more ergonomic at times, but I don't see a huge benefit unless the lines are running through different unions, creating vectors that aid in positioning.
 
I think what ever works for you. If you feel safer go for it. But it is a fact someone with two lines will the vast majority of the time be slower than someone with one.(and not much if any safer) Maybe its just me but when did it stop being tree climbing. It seems to kind of be morphing into high angle rope work. Dont get me wrong, I love all the new gear/toys. But you still have to be able to climb without them. What happened to working with what the tree gives you? Your body positioning, balence, and for lack of a better word(feel), all suffer when you spend most of your time climbing up ropes. Im not trying to dog anybody or say they cant climb. For me I think you should learn how to rope adavance into a large tree and work it with just one rope and a lanyard. Im not saying that how it should always be done. There are much faster ways to go. But if you learn these skills in the begining your body position, balence, and feel will be much better than someone who learned to ascend a rope into the tree and use lots of re-directs etc. I have seen plenty of guys who are badass with a throw ball, can srt super fast into the tree, and then spend for ever trying to move through the tree casue they are not really comfortable TREE climbing. Just my experience, not directed at anybody.
 
I have almost 20 years in technical rescue experience with the fire department. Everything is DRT with primary secondary and tertiary bombproof anchors. Back up to back ups, one man loads and two man loads. Its amazing that we can effect a rescue in any matter or reasonable time with the regulations placed on us. The key for us is relentless practice and speed through ultimate proficiency. We do industrial rope rescue frequently as we have several ship yards and I have personally been involved in dozens or rescues including window washers on high rise buildings. Look at the statistics on why it takes the first responders an average of 2.5 hours to rescue a climber in a tree. everything is doubled and tripled. Think through the aerial rescue scenario at a climbing competition. How long would that take in general DRT. Truly DRT is not as fail safe as having a belay man on your back up line. I just don't see the practicality of this as a regular every day requirement for tree work. Its just not where I think our industry needs to go. I wont speak about the accidents because then i'll probably fall out of a tree tomorrow but its not the technique that caused them. It was unfortunately the persons fault that was injured. I have not hear of many tree climbers who have had an injury that wasn't their fault. All accidents are preventable. Prevention is NOT adding more and more and more and more gear to our everyday jobs. Here's how it is seem from the emergency responder side. We have to build super redundant systems. Why can't we just trust our gear. There are many industries that do just that. The regulators pile more and more crap on us because of the what if scenarios and that nobody wants to get into litigation because a rescuer and a victim were injured because of the one freak biner what had an invisible flaw. So the solution, put 55 biners in the system so if one fails and so on and so on. Not bashing the thread poster but there comes a point you have to just trust your gear and yourself. I personally am more worried about the tree failing than I am my new zigzag blowing apart on me. I just think the regulators bog our industry down already with things we don't need. I have never worked for a big boy but I hear companies like Bartlett even tell you what kind of climbing hitch you can use. I'm sure they wouldn't let me use the rr or the zz. I just thing on the average day to day climb DRT is nonsense. How many of you use the penberthy method to inspect your ropes? My guess is if you did you'd trash your ropes weekly. Natural crotching would be out and for sure you couldn't ever get your rope into the dirt. It's just 2 different worlds. Throw it on the tool box for that crazy job. 2 ropes or 1 if the tree your tied into is gonna fail, its gonna fail and you shouldn't be in it anyway. Just my opinion. Again not kicking dirt in anyone's face. Just an opinion.
 
I am not a man of many words ( I lied ).....but with this thread....I am saying this....I will be using one rope and my lanyard until I finish climbing...two ropes seem way to confusing and cumbersome...I will keep things simple...just my opinion as usual...did I already say I LOVE ROPE....
 
Reg said:
But the wrench doesn't ? What's the difference ?

I wouldn't blame you by the way, with the RR.

Can't comment on the playing part as its strictly a job for me.
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Lol, you liked my post but didn't answer the question ?

Would rather be answered than liked.

In your own time. Thanks in advance. You can't bail on your own thread.
 
I'm a shit talker I know its true, but I am fairly positive I could rock a work climb DRT ahead of SRT climbers in any given competition. I would have an excellent chance in a master especially given they currently only allow the ddrt brand of SRT.

I would not lanyard in at the stations. I think i could hit the landing target with practice.

Get this for going through redirects.
Key:U=unclick
C=click

SRT is always
U,C,U,C,U,C

DRT can either be
U,C,U,C
Or simply
U,C
You don't have to always pass both lines through the redirect which can give you options. also it means if you alternate ropes through the redirects than you can worry less about too much friction on the ropes to retrieve.

Chainsaw: lanyarding in around a big stem is tough. It is NOT as easy to cut through two ropes as it is with one especially if one rope is slack. Try cutting a slack line in the tree.

With DRT I go to my work station, and I start cutting guilt free with no U and C of my lanyard.

With SRT and a lanyard, when you start cutting its a minimum U, C,U,C sometimes with pitching a snap around a stem and catching it in your teeth.

After three days I am confident that I could hold my own as far as speed with most SRT climbers especially if they don't cheat and cut while they are following rec climbing rules.


As far as tools, The first day I used a wrench and a runner, the last two days have been on two runners. The experiment continues but I have not seen anything yet that confirms everyone's fears about DRT in tree work being beyond impossible.
 
There's little reason to be concerned about forces from outside the arbo industry showing up and telling arbos that we SHALL climb DRT.

There is plenty of resistance from WITHIN our profession/industry to SRT. This is so confusing???

Using two ropes in trees is nothing new. Using two ropes as true DRT is novel.

The reason that the notation of 'DdRT' was made many years ago was to differentiate between the three different systems. Oh, and it's much easier to type acronyms than the whole word!

When a challenge is faced come up with a solution. So far arbos have been able to solve problems quite well. If not, the bodies would be piling up, which they aren't.

Lots of good input in this thread.
 
Reg said:
Lol, you liked my post but didn't answer the question ?

Would rather be answered than liked.

In your own time. Thanks in advance. You can't bail on your own thread.
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Sorry, the wrench is different and I have never lost sleep over the wrench being out there because the wrench to me has nothing to do with the safety of your system. The way you tie your hitch is the important thing and people have been trusting their lives to hitches SRT in the tree industry for the last however many years since the taught line hitch was invented.

The rope runner falls into a different category. I am actually surprised that ART and the zig zag feel comfortable with their products to be used SRT. They have deeper pockets and more lawyers I suppose.
 
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