DRT

Not to side track any if the discussion, but why is it we are going back and forth with this? Climbing is a craft that is a practice. We know what works and is safe for the standards put in front of us today. Ten years from now there will surely be some changes. I had made mention of working static line in tree work when I first started on this site. I was meet with opposition. Today we have ground breaking gear coming out for just that. Relax and allow for new ideas to flow. It only can better our craft.
 
Reg and I definitely have gotten sidetracked on how to write CYA jargon for instructions. This is something that I am really trying to get a handle on right now and have been reading lots of gear instructions trying to get down the language and cover my ass while getting out great tools to climbers. This is actually an important discussion for me although not necessarily on topic. Obviously people will climb however suits them and makes them feel safe.
 
Fairfield said:
Just got a chance to read all of this ( sorry Kev for the tardiness). Glenn over at Axcess Rescue is a great guy to go to for training. As for my thoughts on two static lines in a tree for work.... I have been at it for a while now ( unless playing around). It had taken me a little to get the hang of it but I feel way better with it. I have personally taken a fall due to my own complacency. I know that if I would have just had that second line I would have never slammed the deck ( and I was in a position away from the tree and on my way down). Do I think that SPRAT or IRATA or any other rope access lead will come in and tell tree guys what to do... no. Nor do I think that they care to. The cell tower guys are having a huge number of deaths as of late do to the mind set that they just don't need to follow rules if they choose not to. Same thing can happen in any industry. Just happens that Rope Access it is pounded into our heads and even more so into the Level 3 that it will not be tolerated and your firing will be swift. This has to be done for them due to the types of contracts they deal with. If you have ever done tree work in a oil refinery, or Nuclear Plant I am sure you have seen the safety regs and rules that WILL be followed in order to work there.

I don't think it is a difficult job to have two independent lines in a tree while working, I can see a Pin Oak being a major pain and a need to say maybe one line is safer. the two anchors NEEDING to be a known rating is unfounded Tom. It is a practice to try and find anchors that look as though they can hold 5000 lbs. I promise you though everything in rope access we connect to doesnt always have a tested rating tag attached to it. So we use our brain and come up with a safe rigging plan for our anchors. No different then tree work.

This will always be a discussion as to what is best practice. IMO all climbing crafts when studied and practice will allow a climber to be at their top performance. Be a student of climbing all around and dont close your mind to one or another, you never know the other way may save your life one day.
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This was interesting to me at the training because I had often heard the line and have actually saif the very same thing that tree work cannot be thought of in the same category as Rope Access because we dont have rated anchors in tree work. For the scenario of doing rope access on a rusty bridge or a building with varying degree of decay or disrepair we learned about equalizing anchor points because often times you have to spread the load because things might be shady on one. So rope Access workers face the same questions and must be well trained to set up good anchors.
 
treebing said:
The distinction between dSRT and sSRT is very much relative. So a device that is designed to withstand a 5000 lbs pull test has to carry 200 lbs in one scenario and 100 in another scenario doesn't really mean much to me.

Likewise the fact that a failure of a device on sSRT has 20 feet of rope go through it during a 20 foot fall but 40 feet of rope with a dSRT is inconsequential as the result is the same. More line ripping through your hands during a fall is no backup, and can not be counted on to do anything for you. Maybe it would but I wouldn't put any money on it. The difficulty of failing a sSRT system vs. a dSRT system is all subjective and impossible to define in any substantial terms in my opinion and not worth dwelling over really. You either run with a backup line or you don't. But You are absolutely right, ART and Petzl are free to make their own decisions. It seems a bit bold to me but props to them.
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You asked my what I thought so i explained as best as i could. You can disagree all you like but my reasoning is based purley on repetitive experience, be that climbing and rigging at ratios starting at 2:1 - 20:1.... no winches. An MA is still an MA, whether that be lifting or lowering....it doesn't go away. That the device carries less of the climbers weight at 2:1 as opposed to 1:1 is a fact. Same as a climber can more easily hold and manage his own weight at 2:1. How much line passes through the climber or device up or down doesn't change that. I agree its nothing to rely on as a failsafe....but it does put something in your favor. Lots of small areas of favor make a margin of safety. I'm not gonna reply again, because I'm bored with it now. Good luck with the RR, and your DRT experiment.
 
Dang ReG, bored already? I was just starting to have fun. So I agree with you in theory that dSRT has some advantages. You are correct that in dSRT you have some mechanical advantage.

But I would also say that using a 660 in the tree is more dangerous than using a handsaw. Just because a 660 is more dangerous than a handsaw does it mean that it is okay to not tie in twice when using a handsaw? The two tools are treated the same in a safety perspective although I think the 660 should be on its own line but both tools should be respected as something that can kill you while in the air.
 
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treebing said:
Saying I "forget" to buck in sometimes is incorrect. I don't forget. I just don't do. I know I should always buck in before I pull out my saw, but I've gotten away with it so many times...
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That double tie is very important - when using something that could cut through your line. The handsaw fits into that category, but would take more doing to get all the way through the rope. I 'always' buck in when making a cut, not just for safety, but for work positioning. I said 'always' with the bunny ears because I don't always. On some occasions I believe it would be more dangerous for me to be tied in around where I am making the cut. For example: if I am out on a limb holding a substantial hanger and I am setting up to make the cut...I don't want to be tied in where the action is happening. If the reaction to the cut caused the whole mess to break out, I want to be pulled away from it not into it/with it. This would be solved by the second line (DRT). I see that as a huge benefit in making my life...well exactly that..my life. I don't think I should take those chances out on the limb. The problem is for the 3 times a year I find myself 'unable' to tie in to where I am working, should I switch %100 to this DRT, or should I make sure I set a second line if there is reason.

I see that DRT does more than simply keeping you from cutting your one line. It backs up a device that could fail, it gives you added support and control, and it GETS IN THE WAY. That is perhaps my biggest 'hang up' with this method. Why put myself though the tangle every day? I would say go without a rope except when you need it...ha ha. That's where that line you cross comes in... when is it too much and when will that redundant system save your life...making everything worth it.

I am following you treebing as you experiment and manage the DRT system. I look forward to hearing how it all works out, and then you can teach us the ropeS.
Great stuff.
 
This is off topic. I'm very new too treebuzz and was wondering where to put a tree rescue class for firefighters thread, I ask here because I think there would be good info sharing from some of theses people.
 
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This to me is cool because the amount of rope you have to manage per distance traveled is exactly he same in dSRT as in sDRT. If you are coming from a doubled rope SRT system to a standard DRT system you won't notice any difference in rope management hassle. That's why static SRT has become so popular because it halves the amount of rope you need to manage. So really running DRT I am returning to the rope management responsibilities of dSRT except I maintain the ability to redirect at will and always be tied into something bomber when I make a cut. Without the need for my scare strap.[
 
chewbacca said:
Could you please direct me to where you found this figure? I've been looking for figures like these. I'm also curious how long, on average, it takes responders to reach the scene of a tree climbing rescue scenario. Thanks!
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Dr. John Ball, South Dakota State I think. He is all over the safety stats. I have trained several local technical rescue teams and they are all very open about learning what and how we do it. They are undereducated and equipped for this. Trained mainly for industrial rope access.
 
The closes source for response times would be NFIRS. National fire incident reporting system but those kinds of calls don't have a specific call type in the reporting system. Mostly they are entered under techical rescue. I would venture to guess if anybody has already done the leg work on that it would be dr ball
 
So according to TCIA 39.3% of accidents were due to a fall. Interesting, in a way. If what and how we go about work at height is safe as is then why so many falls? If prior to disconnecting from one fall protection you are tied into another then that cant be it. If a line is cut for any reason while making a cut you should still be fine and not hit the deck also right?..... because you have your second tie in point. But lets be honest and I am sure we are all guilty of it, we don't lanyard in for every cut do we? and why?, because you sitting into your climbing line with feet against the tree a lot of times feels perfectly secure. I get it and admit to it as well in the past...... A WHOLE LOT! Think of it this way though, say you bought into the two independent line practice. Now say you don't lanyard in and cut your line, good chance you wont hit the deck right? Way better chance then having the one line and cutting it. Now say you do it enough that it becomes second nature to have two tie in points and independent lines, most likely you will start paying more attention to what you are doing for the other at height work as well. I'm not asking anyone to just take my words hook line and sinker, ask questions (a lot of them!), try it for your self (an honest try, not half assed). Most of the work you will find that you still use one line just split into two lines. No ,matter what is ever said or regulations that are put in place, the reality is that people will still climb how they want and do how they feel. That is going to happen though with an industry like tree work. Prime example: we all know topping is a horrible, yet it is still done with no big brother office coming down on the ones that do it. Main difference here is we are dealing with a human life.

Take what I say as just my humbled opinion from a mind that was able to walk away from a preventable fall. Unfortunately the next guy that fell was in the same company and he has no chance to speak about it. Interesting note about that man though, he picked me up the day I fell. He asked me if I would ever trust my climbing system again (after he asked if I was ok). I told him yes, but I will put a backup in place so I will for now on have a fail safe......... I wonder what he would say if he was able to stand in front of us?

Again this is all just my humbled opinion.
 
So, Jim and Kevin...I want to hear from both you guys about what qualifies as a DRT system. Here's some primer questions;

~In a base anchored scenario, does a single line that branches into two independent lines before crossing over the PSP qualify as a DRT system?
~Does a canopy anchored working line and a basal anchored back up line qualify?
~Do the lines need to be fully employed even during ascent?
~Does a lanyard qualify, making a 2nd point of attachment as the primary climbing system and back-up are redirected, one following the other?
 
Kevin,

DRT in treeclimbing ( for both work positioning and access into the tree) has been recommended in the UK for well over 10 years, to this day it's strongly advised that where applicable UK treeclimbers use DRT, this basically means two DdRT systems (document below written pre SRT work positioning in treework) -

The HSE document below - what you need to understand is that UK treeclimbers have generally sided with the document's central theme that DRT can actually impede certain treeclimbing operations because of the unique nature of our work. There are basically no pro tree climbers in the UK who will set up two lines in the tree prior to starting work. It just doesn't happen, mostly due to market forces - in an ideal world everyone should be climbing trees DRT.

Let us know what you think of the paper - section 6 most relevant

http://www.hse.gov.uk/agriculture/pdf/wahreport.pdf


.
 
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For me I'm good with saying SRT is a single line that is basal tied or cinched in the canopy. Dbrt is the trad way we all started with. That's how I look at it but don't have much of a preference what anyone wants to call it.

As for the anchoring with two lines, if I am anchoring to the tree I have to assume the tree at that spot to be a bomber anchor. If it is a dead tree and I don't trust it I find something else near to anchor to. For my anchor straps I use two although I may connect them both together with both lines to keep them close and clean in my rigging. I do look at a lanyard as work positioning but it is in my view a point of contact for tie in. All of this may be a lot easier seen the read. It all really is not as confusing or jumbled in the tree as I imagine it may read to guys that have never done it in any climbing setting. If any of you guys get a chance take a look at the petzl road trip vids on you tube. I know it is not tree work, but does give a glimpse of how it all is done and how speed is not an issue.
 
So I am really unqualified to answer what DRT means and how far you have to go.

I consider a lanyard DRT.

I consider if you are squarely situated like three points of contact and one rope you are anchored twice.

The key to efficient DRT is to have a back up rope that you don't notice. Most backup devices operate with a tie cord that you pull with your descent hand. So I want one slack most of the time. But I am coming across huge amount of occasions where using both ropes to access the canopy is great.

The only rule about anchors is that you it to trust your life to them. Although I can already see myself taking that higher redirect and leaving my back up line lower and stronger. That's probably not what I'm supposed to do.
 
I can see that. But for now, how are you managing bigger moves? Do you estimate loading enough slack into the backup line before busting a dyno on your work position line?
 
Very interesting discussion. Lots of good ideas. But,(prob saw that coming) what's with trying to re name everything. Everybody knows what Ddrt and srt means pertaining to tree climbing, right? There seems to be a lot of this going around lately. In my experience it is usually before a sales pitch. It kind of reminds me of a talk I saw at TCIA this year. The one about what we "call" different parts of tree climbing.It seems to me that re naming things and advocating for different systems may be for the benefit of the few, not the whole. To some people two ropes may mean twice as much gear with a marginal, if any safety gain. Sorry if I offended anyone, just thought I'd throw in my un requested opinion.
 
sherwood7 said:
Very interesting discussion. Lots of good ideas. But,(prob saw that coming) what's with trying to re name everything. Everybody knows what Ddrt and srt means pertaining to tree climbing, right? There seems to be a lot of this going around lately. In my experience it is usually before a sales pitch. It kind of reminds me of a talk I saw at TCIA this year. The one about what we "call" different parts of tree climbing.It seems to me that re naming things and advocating for different systems may be for the benefit of the few, not the whole. To some people two ropes may mean twice as much gear with a marginal, if any safety gain. Sorry if I offended anyone, just thought I'd throw in my un requested opinion.
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No that's a good opinion. No renaming has to happen
Just clarifying. Single rope means single rope, Ddrt means doubled. But doubled rope is SRT and always has been.
DRT is two ropes and always has been.
 
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