drop a 75' tree in a 50' LZ

Re: there must be some lesson here

Also know that the back cut was not a clean cut.. as I said it was a snap cut... so there was plenty of holding ability.. you could have never broke that when pulling by hand.. Actually its pretty cool to watch and hear the little chunck break out of the snap cut as the back cut opens... watch the slow motion again, and check out the backcut opening..
 
Re: This thread is tree-diculous

[ QUOTE ]
I've had HO's get nervous as I started up a stem, should I have stopped to alleviate their concern? Any time we put ourselves in a tree we are putting our lives at risk not to mention any property near our DZ's, therefore I find your argument weak and rhetorical. He at least made sure the people were out of the house. Its his show he can run it how he chooses.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why evacuate the house? Was there a significant risk that it could have been hit by something? Hmmm.

Obviously tree work is risky, but there is such a thing as unnecessary risk. There are also ways of removing trees that are FAR less risky than this one.

The whole premise of this thread/"technique" is pretty weak. I haven't heard any respectable members of this forum chime in to advocate or defend it.

Yes, it is his show, and he can do as he pleases. "Jimmy crack corn and I don't care."
 
Re: This thread is tree-diculous

Im shocked this thread is still here. Im shocked that you mods would allow Daniel to post such drivel. Members here get their heads ripped off for not wearing safety glasses ( or something similiar), but yet Daniel can post up links to vids of him making some homoeowner backcuts and say "this is how its done" and you will allow it?

Go look at his vids, everything he does is a classic example of what not to do, but yet here they sit for the whole world to read. If TB is as elite and safety orientated as everyone claims it to be, why can can Daniel post these vids and you mods (Tom and Mark), let him continue to do so?
Daniel is going to kill someone with his "advanced" cutting techniques.

So my question is to Tom and/or Mark. Isnt it in the best interest of this site, it's members, and the industry as a whole, to pull these vids before some noob makes an attempt at his hackery and kills or hurts themselves? If you dont agree, it speaks volumes about the double standards that go on here.
 
Re: This thread is tree-diculous

[ QUOTE ]
Both of them thought, "it wont fall", and both of them are in wheel chairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

John Ball's OSHA stat's have a couple of similar anecdotes. The whole point of a safety conscious mentality is to work to avoid what might go wrong. One WTF story was a guy who ran out of fuel making his scarf, sso he brought the fuel/oil to the saw and proceeded to fill it up right in the line of fall???? Supposedly it was a proper cut, but the back-wood failed before he even started back-cut, fell right on him as he was filling the saw.


The few times I have screwed the pooch it is because I have either failed to communicate my plan with others, or I have made a cut thinking "this should do that, and probably wont do the other thing".

I think it is ironic that Murphy's Law comes to mind here while discussing Daniel's methodology. So for the less experienced practitioner, keep in mind "anything that can go wrong, will go wrong"

For the most part, I think it is more efficient to piece a tree out then fell a big top to cut it up on the ground. Cleanup is much faster.
 
Re: This thread is tree-diculous

Johnnie,

Your interpretation of the editorial position that Mark and I take is way off base.

There is plenty of discussion in the thread to show how marginal most arbos think this practice is.

There are plenty of examples of work practices being shared on any forum, not just for arbos, that are marginal. Without this sort of open discussion of the practices no one will learn.

If the noob that you're concerned about reads the whole thread and then still does what Daniel is suggesting then the responsibility for how things end up is on them not anyone else. After all...what is that saying about guns killing???
 
Re: This thread is tree-diculous

Thats your stance?

Passing the "responsibility"? This site is for learning, many people may come here for an "how to", or to expand their toolbox. By allowing him to post these vids you may as well be endorsing them.


You handled this exactly how I thought you would. Which tells me I am not off base, but rather spot on.

and the difference between other trade practices and ours, is that people die in ours (almost daily). They die doing stupid moves like he has shown.
 
Re: This thread is tree-diculous

One thing that technique is NOT... and that's 'advanced'. It requires advanced experience to know when it will probably work and when it won't... but it's not remotely innovative.

For me, being the selfish, work averse person I am... I'd rather be up in the tree piecing it out instead of on the ground shoving brush in a chipper. I'm happy to take big pieces when I can but I'm not trying to bang out 4 or 5 properties a day... I'm slow, I let my guys work slow. We have a good time. Life's short but in my advancing age, I hate hurrying.
 
Re: This thread is tree-diculous - - - NOT

[ QUOTE ]
Johnnie,

Your interpretation of the editorial position that Mark and I take is way off base.

There is plenty of discussion in the thread to show how marginal most arbos think this practice is.

There are plenty of examples of work practices being shared on any forum, not just for arbos, that are marginal. Without this sort of open discussion of the practices no one will learn.

If the noob that you're concerned about reads the whole thread and then still does what Daniel is suggesting then the responsibility for how things end up is on them not anyone else. After all...what is that saying about guns killing???

[/ QUOTE ]

Tom

I could not agree more. I've picked up a lot <u>'of what to do and what NOT to do'</u> from this thread.

Though I would not attempt most of what Daniel has shown in his video, I have found some useful tips, especially from his post on <font color="blue">Management of Risks</font>. And, I've learned a lot from the all those that have posted opposing views on the risks demonstrated in the video. There have been some really good lessons in this tread, on both sides of the issue.

I commend you for allowing this tread to run 'free' so we (I) can learn from the controversy. For the most part, the controversy has remained <u>civil</u>, which is the mark of expert moderation. Thank you, Tom and Mark!
 
Re: This thread is tree-diculous - - - NOT

I dunno about civil.. I guess you did say "for the most part" though. I got called a scumbag, lowballer, hack, full of chit, and a poster of drivel. And worst of all "lucky". Ha... LOL...

More drivel later.. Hope you all have a good day..
 
Re: This thread is tree-diculous - - - NOT

I wonder how many deaths in arb work are people who have NEVER read a forum, trade journal or attended training. Putting the responsibility for saving lives/causing deaths on a forum is a bit of a stretch.
 
Re: good point tom

Tophopper, they are not passing the responsibility, they are moderating. That means not impeding the flow but keeping it within certain boundaries.

Tom, you allow the posters to assess the merits and value of any information posted here and for a debate that is mostly respectful to ensue. I liken it to a hockey game, where the refs will allow some infractions to go unpunished so as not to affect the overall flow of the game and deal with the major ones that are way over the top. Never an easy balancing act but one that tends to work here.

KUDOS.
 
Re: This thread is tree-diculous - - - NOT

This is by far one of the best reads on tree buzz going right now IMO. It has got me thinking a couple times in the past few weeks about how I am doing things.
Did a Stone dead pine removal recently and first thing I thought of was this thread. It would have been easy and stupid to just blow out a big top to fit in the space provided but instead I took it much smaller. I added about 30 minutes to my day.
The info in this thread, based on majority input warrants caution based on experience. That is valuable knowledge in my book.
 
Re: This thread is tree-diculous

Bah...what do I know anyways. I'm not advocating Dan's methods, but what are you gonna do? Get fired up with righteuous indignation while on the net and let your crew members know all about it in the morning (or if your as unlucky as my wife you're explaining the intricacies of hinge characteristics and the force enacted on spar from a falling top to your significant other).

I wouldn't do it, no way...that tree woulda been fun to rig out. The ash top is the same thing, take the time to work safe, don't be lazy and straight cut (oh did I give away the secret?) a big top with the potential of it breaking up high and coming down on ya. And what, exactly, is the escape plan if it goes south? I think the most important thing tree work has taught me is to always have an escape route, a way out when the federales come. The only one you seem to leave yourself, Dan, is a stretcher.

As far as the moderation is concerned, there certainly does seem to be a level of favoritism and double standards...whatever (can't all be as openminded as some OTHER places). Don't like it don't stay. I think (for the most part) there is lots of education here. Just like anything in life though, you gots to sift through the manure to find it.
 
Re: This thread is tree-diculous - - - NOT

Seems like most of them are people who have no interest in learning how to learn to to the job better. For the matter they seem to mostly be semi trained helpers.
 
Re: This thread is tree-diculous - - - NOT

Question, on the second top you droped. I'm not following why the cutter made the cut he did. With the whip back of the truck from the release, seemed a little risky to me. I know you only see so much when watching the film but would it had been safer to just highline the tops out? That way you could have been out of the bucket in the tree and elimanated 80% of the whip action from the release.
 
Re: This thread is tree-diculous - - - NOT

i don't see you guys busting ace tree master or sherbrooke tree services balls when their crews are blowing out 50'-70' tops on to asphalt roadways out of 150' trees while riding a bucket bigger than most cranes let the guy make his own mistakes and his own cuts; he knows the risk, if he gets himself dead or in trouble then thats his business. as far as the busted maple limb, boston you work on a high production removal crew: i and everyone else know for a fact you've done worse, so don't throw stones from a glass house. heck today i threw a spar that took a real bad bounce after i unknowingly (lots of poison ivy + production rush) dutch-manned the cut and it landed on another stump causing it to bounce into a wooden fence and take out five pine fence pickets. so does that make me a hack or a dunce or stupid or careless? or does it mean i was in a hurry and also didn't want get any closer to the poison ivy than i had to? it's his business his crew his life let him do with it what he will. you do with your life and your crews what you will. this is america and we all have the right to choose and price things the way we want to and to pay the consequences or reap the rewards for those choices. personally, i think you should buy a crane daniel.
 
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