drop a 75' tree in a 50' LZ

Daniel

Daniel

Carpal tunnel level member
Location
Suburban Philadelphia (Wayne)
drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

In the old days, I'd go up and take the top 25' out...
Now I pretty much will stand in the hooks and drop the top 50'.. Less up and down... faster.. trust the falling cuts..
More fun..

How 'bout you?
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

Sounds logical, however, we are trained to accomplish the mission in a safe and sane manner. Notching and dropping a 50 foot top, 25 foot up, on hooks is not a good idea in my opinion. Think about the amount of forces generated from a 50 foot top. Especially without an escape route, trees are knwn to break-out beneath climbers from taking tops that are too big. I recall one of the authors of "The art and science of pratical rigging" losing his life from taking a top too big. Furthermore, G. Beranek states, avoid taking a top if the height of the top is greater than your height up the tree. Example, 50' top, 25' up. Good topic I would like to hear other opinions. Because i know we all do it.
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

what I dont like in that situation is when the top hits first and springs the wholoe tree in unpredictable ways, possibly back at you. Its possible for the top to hit ground with the hinge still attached almost. I think that my cuts are smaller than they used to be. Part of the reason is its easier to clean up rather than tackling an entire top all crumpled up on the ground.
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

Good point treebing, I too have had big tops hit the ground tip first and come back at the trunk and slide down my climb line. This bothered me a bit and throuhout time we learn to manipulate our notches to dictate how that top leaves the spar and hits the ground. I guess we learn by our mistakes. Experience is the key, and I'm still learning.
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

If there is any chance of the top catching something on the way down, its necessary to cut a humboldt, otherwise a well made conventional notch and back cut should allow a safe release well away from the climber..
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

I wouldn't do it,not worth the risk involved.
Even when it goes good if that much weight hits the root system it will send a shock up both gaffs that will come together at your spine and follow it up to the base of your neck.
A fifty foot top here would mean you are only up the largest tree fifty feet and probably less than the length of the top.
I don't like taking chances for the thrill of doing it because sooner or later you'll wear it.
Go small and go home.
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

I'd climb the extra 25 ft. You can't always count on the butt to jump off and land the piece flat. I know I know, if you notch and back cut properly it will. But if it goes wrong you're stuck there. Would you make your notch more shallow in this situation as opposed to cutting from the ground? and would you cut the sides of the hinge in a little on each side to prevent the bark from hanging on? By humboldt you mean upside down notch?
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

[ QUOTE ]
Good point treebing, I too have had big tops hit the ground tip first and come back at the trunk and slide down my climb line. This bothered me a bit and throuhout time we learn to manipulate our notches to dictate how that top leaves the spar and hits the ground. I guess we learn by our mistakes. Experience is the key, and I'm still learning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep you rope in a rope bag with you, up the tree.

Much easier than having brush, or the top, tangle in the line, and you still have an emergency exit line ready to go.
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

A very experienced climber here in MN went up a short distance to drop a huge top. I'm not sure of the spar to top ratio. Tips hit first and the butt broke his leg very badly. That was about 9 months ago, I'm not sure if he is walking again, yet.
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

[ QUOTE ]
If there is any chance of the top catching something on the way down, its necessary to cut a humboldt, otherwise a well made conventional notch and back cut should allow a safe release well away from the climber..

[/ QUOTE ]


Make sure that you use proper STUMP SHOT on a conventional cut.

A birdbeak/ open notch seems like it would be more inclined to hold the trunk for a longer period of time than a smaller angle humboldt or conventional.

Maybe the thing is to go to 40' instead of 50', with a strong, well-rooted tree.

Make sure you aren't going for a mighty hinge with a lot of pull line force that could make it more inclined to split, especially on a straight grained tree.

I did this last week with some douglas firs, only about 60' but took a 40' top, but was tied-in to an adjacent tree and could unclip my lanyard and swing away.

An important thing is that the forward rotation of the top forces and equal and opposite reactive force on the spar. Beware of it pushing the spar, with great leverage, and possibly destabilizing the roots.
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

I generally don't drop more than a third of the tree in one piece. It's just not that much more work to pitch a long block or two.

I've mentioned before that I subbed for a climber who cut half of a big oak spar and was crushed when it pointed in and fell back against the stem.
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

[ QUOTE ]
I generally don't drop more than a third of the tree in one piece. It's just not that much more work to pitch a long block or two.

I've mentioned before that I subbed for a climber who cut half of a big oak spar and was crushed when it pointed in and fell back against the stem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blinky, can you clarify what you mean by pointed in and fell back?

Do you mean the tip hit, dug in, and pushed the butt of the top back toward the spar after the hinge broke, or was it a big open-faced/ birdbeak face cut and the tip hit before the hinge broke.

Was he cutting from the side of the spar, relative to the lay?

Thanks.
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

You'r playing with fire man ! Bad short cut !!!! If that butt hung on for some reason or even worse hit tips first and sprung back you would get rocked . You seem like you'r pretty sharp and quite skilled with a saw , but the math doesn't add up on this one. This is the kind of thing we all talk about on the awakenings page, I don't want to hurt anyones feelings but this is serious .
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

Taking big can be fun, and can save allot of climbing. I can think of a few times being low in a tree, and cutting a small but long limb and having it kick back and hitting my foot and even knocking my gaff out, or just having to dodge it. So I agree, when taking a top, go big but not too big!
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

[ QUOTE ]
If there is any chance of the top catching something on the way down, its necessary to cut a humboldt, otherwise a well made conventional notch and back cut should allow a safe release well away from the climber..

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mean to preach, but climbers should not be using a conventional notch to take out a top. I've heard of some pretty grusome stories about reverse barber chairs, it actually happened to one of our very experienced climbers the other day. Thankfully he didn't get crushed. A humbolt will eliminate that threat and I find that pieces actually come over easier.
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If there is any chance of the top catching something on the way down, its necessary to cut a humboldt, otherwise a well made conventional notch and back cut should allow a safe release well away from the climber..

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mean to preach, but climbers should not be using a conventional notch to take out a top. I've heard of some pretty grusome stories about reverse barber chairs, it actually happened to one of our very experienced climbers the other day. Thankfully he didn't get crushed. A humbolt will eliminate that threat and I find that pieces actually come over easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

Theoretically speaking, what mechanics led to the conventional cut resulting in the reverse barberchair, and by RBc, do you mean the spar split?

What climbing line/ lanyard system was he using at the time?

How did he avoid being crushed? If you do refer with RBc to a spar split, was the split small, or was he using an adjustable frictions saver or SRT, like a choked running-bowline? Was his lanyard not set up from hip-D-ring to hip-D-ring, thereby keeping his body from completing the lanyard circle around the spar?
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

It was a large negundo with a decent lean, very windy day. I wasn't there but from what I was told the top started coming over before he could do a proper backcut, the stem split on the right side and tore off below him. He was tied into another leader at the time but I guess his lanyard pulled him down a foot. It was only a small split, but I guess it shocked the tree pretty hard. I don't really understand your last question though. You mentioned the adj. friction saver and srt which reduce the risk but isn't the hip to hip lanyard what crushes you?
 
Re: drop a 75\' tree in a 50\' LZ

[ QUOTE ]
In the old days, I'd go up and take the top 25' out...
Now I pretty much will stand in the hooks and drop the top 50'.. Less up and down... faster.. trust the falling cuts..
More fun..

How 'bout you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Horrible idea. Just terrible- you will get away with this for the most part, but it will come back to bite you. Developing good habits protects you in the long run. You may get away with poor work habits in the short term, but probably not forever.
 
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