Cost Sharing with Subcontractors

So for $1000 a day are they generating like 6k for the tree company ? I find it hard to believe anyone would price themselves at that.....for climbing a few trees in a day. The circumstances would have to be exceptional.

What do you try try to generate in an average day ? Here in Victoria it seems to range between 1300 to 2k for a 3 man crew and chipper, depending on who and what's involved.
 
That's about right: varying between $1,500-$2,100/ day for a 3 man crew. With a contract climber that # has got to be $3k or so. I've never paid $1,000 per day for a contract climber and I wonder how it is possible. I hear these things and I am in awe.
 
They put the rate out there and if the get bites repeatedly then that's their rate. If not they'll starve or drop it to the point the market is willing to pay.
 
yikes, $1000 a day.... I gota agree with reg here. It seems that would be really hard to justify. Around here it seems to be anywere from $250-400 a day depending on the the climber and the scope of the work.
 
500 a day is steep. 1000 a day is above and beyond arrogance. An A+E doctor doesn't get that, and they save lives. Tree climbing, please.

I would try to cut a deal with your ex-climber, Ward. Gaurentee him 2 days a week, every week, or something like that, at an agreed rate. Outside of that he can charge and do what ever he wants.
 
I think there is only one thing to do here. Move to OR and charge $999 a day. That way no one has to pay the outrageous $1000 dollar a day rate. Or reg if you are down, we could both go and split the $999. $599 for you and $400 for me. But seriously, I think guaranteeing multiple days per week would be a great start to a negotiation about rates.
 
Nobody I've heard of is getting a $1000 a day in Portland on a regular basis. But the beauty of being independent is getting to set your own rates and wage. I think looking at your time as an asset and deciding what that is worth is a very personal decision. It has nothing to do with market rates. Nobody can tell me what my time is worth. They can say that they won't pay my rates but the next guy just might. One thing I've thought about is having an online calendar where a certain number of days are X amount of dollars for the day and then every other day is significantly more. People can buy my days off from me but they will have to pay a premium.

There are also times where I place bids on jobs and say "I will get this job done for X amount of money no matter how fast (or slow) I do the work. Often times these are extremely dangerous trees or jobs that multiple climbers have turned down or projects still in the bidding phase. If that is the case, I just look the project over and tell them how much to budget for me.

When it really comes down to it until you sit down with an accountant and look at your income, expenses, career longevity, savings, and retirement goals, all of these rants about what is a fair wage are meaningless. What do the numbers say? What my very good friend used to say is "if you wouldn't do it for free, you shouldn't be an arborist." I agree fully. My career will be an economic disaster and I don't really care. I get to go out and crush crazy jobs with multiple crews and companies and just have fun pushing mentally and physically. It is the game. It is the drug. There is nothing like it.

Inspire your people. Get to know them. Treat them well. Be open and honest about the economics of the business. Show them the books inside and out. Transparency breeds trust in all directions. People who care about you, like you, and trust you to be equitable and to take care of them will not feel like they have to become independent contractors or your competetion. They won't have to play the numbers game. I've seen so many companies lose great personnel who then went and started their own companies or became independent contract climbers. I look at that as a failure of the company owners who the employee worked for. More often than not, the employer didn't treat the employee well, thought they could just find someone cheaper to do the same thing, didn't invest in benefits, or provide ways for the employee to advance in the company. In doing so, they usually held back their business from growing, lost significant production, and gained one thing. More competetion and another person driving down the market rates. Often times they gained another thing. A reputation as a company to not work for.
 
I hope this does not present (too much) as self promotion, but here goes. Assuming that you are hiring a sub-climber who is legit re: all business requirements and that your goals are pristine: you care about your employees, the trees and your clients-now and in the future. Why is he there on any given day? Is it only profit, maybe some specific training goals? In any case you extract your benefits from someone who is responsible at high levels of due diligence to perform the work with no investment on your part to facilitate that competency, let alone its' inculation. No group building and shared safety training, often no personal connection with coworkers...to me this maybe the most intimidating part of contract climbing. We show up, assess the project, make a plan, discuss it with the crew and then, unless it is with people we have worked with frequently it is somewhat :"a wing and a prayer". We are generally being hired to do jobs with more objective risk, either technically or due to performance pressure with unfamiliar support personnel.

So what am I showing up with for, say $ 65.00/hr?
+Full business lic, bond, ins. to 2 million
+Sprinter Van-extra vehicle on site for rigging point or emergency transport, first aid gear
+Various certifications: ISA cert Arborist and Hazard tree assessor. NJ State Cert. Tree expert. BS Forestry. EMT and WFR trained. Crane card and CDL A
+All climbing and rigging ropes
+GRCS and multiple other friction devices and multiple blocks and slings
+ Saws from climbing to 880 if nec. Chains, files ect.
+ The ability to assess a job sold by an often unknown party and re-evaluate, perhaps leading to rebidding or canceling work..more frequent than you might think.

Once again, this is not intended as self promo, it pertains to what are we bringing to the job as contract climbers and what we are worth and what we actually need to make to be economically viable. A premise of business is to externalize costs whenever possible, is this ethical (ie. our training and conditioning). The point would seem to be to pay people as much as you fairly can, not as little as you can get away with, and then they will respond in kind (sorry, like oh sure)
 
That's quite a list of equipment for a contractor, and an equally impressive list of qualifications-hats off to you tFord. Sounds like your rates need to increase to support all that, but if your like me gear collecting is a hobby in itself, somehow I justify all my toys because they "make" me money, in reality it's danm near a wash.
 
Tom Ford! A sight as rare and amazing as seeing a Yeti. Thanks for your input here. Of course you come to the table with good equipment and great skills. I think Kevin Bingham made a point awhile back about how he gradually raised his rates until few tree services will call him but, no worries, he has replaced this arrangement with actual clients. I know that you, Tom, have both clients and tree services that you work with. When a contractor is hiring their labor at $70/hr (jobs are bid at this rate), then hiring a sub at $65/hr had better be worth it and if they don't have work at that rate then they won't hire you. The original question of how exactly contractors are able to do this (hire at a rate north of $50/hr) is still an open one. I have heard you describe how contractors who hire you will utilize you towards completing multiple jobs in a day--jobs that wouldn't ordinarily get done by the crew in a day. I see this as the most economically rational way to do it, but wonder if safety or quality control becomes an issue when you are banging out one job after the next in order to "make the day" and pay off all the subs. "Of course not" is the answer I can already anticipate you saying, "because I am so good". Hahaahaha
 
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The rate of the contractor is a function of their productivity. That would be the point of hiring them at the rate that is well above what you would pay an inhouse climber. So, you take those jobs estimated based on your usual crew then put a more productive crew (due to the contract climber) and you should have that job completed in less time. Using a contract climber, much alike to bringing a crane in, you will be able to complete more work than before, generating more revenue in the day. What the climber is able to produce above your normal daily rate is directly proportional to the rate he should be charging you. And for you, if a particular contract climber isn't doing just that then don't hire them or renegotiate the rate.
 
Just curious... What's the market like in Portland? Most good climbers that I know around here either work full time and do buzzies on the weekend or have their own businesses.
 
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