Balancing and tip tying [seeing possibilities]

@Daniel... Thanks for for the tips. Seems obvious, but paying more attention to rope angle first, then combining that with visualization of how piece will swing would probably help. That video was brutal. Seems like the hinge snapping late was a big part of the problem... Combined with the steep rope angle, size of piece, and not letting run...
 
If you're rigging into another nearby tree or into span-rigging that will predictably direct the piece away from the climber, etc, tip-tying MAY be advantageous.





When mid-tying close to the butt, you create a second class lever, increasing the force on a pre-tensioned rope.

If butt-tying, the rope stretches enough that this isn't an issue.

If you're balance-ish tying, the load is balanced without the leverage created be being out partway, with a pretensioned rope.
 
Good call @treebing. Do you like to have the ability to lift to pretension tip tied branches, or do you also lift them off of the stub after the cut is made? BTW the rig n wrench looks like an amazing tool!
 
Yes rigging with a GRCS or for smaller pieces a rig n wrench creates great control and is a pleasure. .

That said, Most trees can be done easily and efficiently with butt or balance point rigging though and smaller pieces. it is a special day when the GRCS comes out. The rig n wrench I use all the time but tip tying is limited to what the ground guy can handle.
 
When tip tying I want to make sure its a full lift. Its much more than pretension. I don't want the piece hanging up in other branches or breaking off the hinge early until I've eliminated all potential movement. Its got to be a static lift and a clean motionless break. If I'm worried about it coming off before the lift is done than ill include a butt tie as well to limit motion. If the rigging is going to take good reflexes and precise athleticism from my groundies to avert catastrophe than ill go another route.
 
Way to many variables to make a blanket statement like that...


supertramp said:
@Daniel... Thanks for for the tips. Seems obvious, but paying more attention to rope angle first, then combining that with visualization of how piece will swing would probably help. That video was brutal. Seems like the hinge snapping late was a big part of the problem... Combined with the steep rope angle, size of piece, and not letting run...
Click to expand...

The hinge had no effect on the movement... and anytime you need your groundman to let a piece run to save your life, you had better re-think your career choice, or at least up your rigging game... His ground man actually saved him by not letting it run.. anywhere from 6" to 6' lower and he would have been dead or seriously injured...

That was a bad set up ... REALLY BAD... he had the guts to show it... so we all should be thankful for such a wonderful illustration of the dangers of tip tying... I believe there was no room to let it run for the playhouse... so he should have cut it in two, or tied off the but line... He mentioned in a response to my comment that he thought just the friction of the but line on the tree would slow the but down..... A rookie mistake that cold have cost him his life...

I made plenty along the way and lived to tell the tale too... probably most experienced arbs would say the same.. they got lucky somewhere along the way...
 
When tip tying and applying lift it is super important to actually tip tie. I have had a couple scary moments when I completely misjudged twig and leaf weight and so did not have the leverage to make a clean lift as well as dodging a butt flying in the air once the cut is finished. It is now normally my practice to rid the lead of as much brush and uncertainty as practical first, and then take mostly wood in predictable large sections.
 
I go the other way.. I like to leave them as long and as full as possible.... Proper rigging set up and cut to get a slow gently movement often times coming to a complete stop before final separation.. It's really pretty when done right, and much faster and safer than taking off the tips first
 
I figure if I have to go out there to tie the rope anyway, I'm already there what's a few minutes and a few cuts to ensure no hangups, rolls, twists or funkyness. Get rid of variables. I have learned that for me, just getting rid of them is the best way to deal. Its fast too. And you can take big wood.
 
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Daniel said:
I go the other way.. I like to leave them as long and as full as possible.... Proper rigging set up and cut to get a slow gently movement often times coming to a complete stop before final separation.. It's really pretty when done right, and much faster and safer than taking off the tips first
Click to expand...

Daniel, could you explain why you find it safer to leave brush on tips? ( I can see why you might like to leave them longer I think)
 
@supertramp Keep in mind too when getting advice from others, that each person has their own style and way that they go at things. @Daniel likes to leave the brush on to save some time, but doesn't mind if the piece happens to roll because he is in a bucket and can get clear of it. @treebing likes to clear the brush to be certain that it won't do anything funny because he is climbing.

Not saying one way is right or wrong, just different variables and styles. Personally I only tip tie if I'm lifting, and I only try to balance the piece if I'm wanting it to swing laterally before it comes down. Another tip on getting it to swing laterally, I got this from treebuzz I believe it was treespyder that said it. If you set up your rigging to get the limb to swing to the left, tighten the rigging rope as much as possible and then slowly cut the limb steering it straight down or right until it adds pretension to the rope, then finish the cut steering it to the left as originally intended. That extra limb weight settling into the rope will increase the tension on the rope and make that limb move horizontally
 
Daniel said:
Way to many variables to make a blanket statement like that...




The hinge had no effect on the movement... and anytime you need your groundman to let a piece run to save your life, you had better re-think your career choice, or at least up your rigging game... His ground man actually saved him by not letting it run.. anywhere from 6" to 6' lower and he would have been dead or seriously injured...

That was a bad set up ... REALLY BAD... he had the guts to show it... so we all should be thankful for such a wonderful illustration of the dangers of tip tying... I believe there was no room to let it run for the playhouse... so he should have cut it in two, or tied off the but line... He mentioned in a response to my comment that he thought just the friction of the but line on the tree would slow the but down..... A rookie mistake that cold have cost him his life...

I made plenty along the way and lived to tell the tale too... probably most experienced arbs would say the same.. they got lucky somewhere along the way...
Click to expand...
The hinge was in fact one of the worst offenses in this clusterfuck. He chose an undercut forcing the piece to make a large left to right swing. Combined with his pathetic attempt at a tip-tie the piece had no choice but to do what it did. It was inevitable.
 
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The rigging rope overhead anchor and tie off point created an inevitable helicopter swing... how the hinge functioned had nothing to do with it... There are cuts that can slow a swing down under less extreme situations.. weight of the piece and the swing
 
Jehinten said:
@supertramp Keep in mind too when getting advice from others, that each person has their own style and way that they go at things. @Daniel likes to leave the brush on to save some time, but doesn't mind if the piece happens to roll because he is in a bucket and can get clear of it. @treebing likes to clear the brush to be certain that it won't do anything funny because he is climbing.

Not saying one way is right or wrong, just different variables and styles. Personally I only tip tie if I'm lifting, and I only try to balance the piece if I'm wanting it to swing laterally before it comes down. Another tip on getting it to swing laterally, I got this from treebuzz I believe it was treespyder that said it. If you set up your rigging to get the limb to swing to the left, tighten the rigging rope as much as possible and then slowly cut the limb steering it straight down or right until it adds pretension to the rope, then finish the cut steering it to the left as originally intended. That extra limb weight settling into the rope will increase the tension on the rope and make that limb move horizontally
Click to expand...


Yes the rigging described above that tree spyder wrote about back in the day aback at arboristsite and as demonstrated by Mark Chisholm in his one day workshops, and as I saw in action used extensively by Big Jon Grier in the early 2000's is my preferred method of rigging.. Taking out big limbs in one cut with slow and steady side swing movement into the rigging and very little or no shock load after separation. Slow and steady.. looks graceful like a ballet...

The one thing I would correct is that being in a bucket takes a little more rigging finesse than on rope and saddle.. When climbing if the piece is going to swing right, you can simply move to the left side of the branch to make the cut... Not so in the bucket... It's not uncommon to have no other way to set up the rigging but to have the piece wanting to swing right at the op or the boom... There are ways around that with a little creativity.. nice to have tricks in the bag....
 
treebing said:
Yes rigging with a GRCS or for smaller pieces a rig n wrench creates great control and is a pleasure. .

That said, Most trees can be done easily and efficiently with butt or balance point rigging though and smaller pieces. it is a special day when the GRCS comes out. The rig n wrench I use all the time but tip tying is limited to what the ground guy can handle.
Click to expand...
Im a big fan of the rig n wrench. So useful, especially with one groundman. By the way, Thanks for bringing this to the market Kevin.
 
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